Andrei Ram | The Art of Breathing – Transforming Life Through Prana Nidra

Andrei Ram is a distinguished yoga practitioner and instructor with a rich history in both the arts and sciences. He holds a background in contemporary dance and choreography, and has studied biology. His profound journey into yoga was significantly influenced by his experiences with Native American philosophies in Colombia, where he was raised. Andrei has spent more than three decades exploring and teaching yoga, emphasizing pranayama—the art of breathing. He has been deeply influenced by Sri Dharma Mittra and has devoted himself to uncovering the essence of yoga practices and translating eastern philosophies into applicable contemporary wisdom. Andrei is currently based in Rome and is actively promoting a new book titled "Prana Nidra."

Visit Andrei here: http://innerparadise.org/ & https://prananidra.co/

Key Takeaways:

• Integration in Yoga: Andrei emphasizes the idea of yoga as a practice that integrates all aspects of life, from breathing to spiritual understanding, based on personal perception and context.
• Prana Nidra Concept: He introduces "Prana Nidra" as a middle practice, providing crucial rest for the energy systems, which consequently rests the mind and body.
• Reinterpreting Yama & Niyama: Andrei proposes a shift in understanding core yoga principles—such as seeing Yama as 'caring' rather than 'restriction', fostering a more nurturing approach.
• Importance of Conscious Breathing: Highlighting breathing as an art form, Andrei stresses the need for caring consciousness to cultivate prana (life force), impacting a refined and artistic way of living.
• Spiritual and Practical Coherence: Emphasizing coherence in yoga practice and life, Andrei advocates for the integration of spiritual insights into daily actions and interactions.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, bodywork, and beyond. Follow us at @ Native Yoga and check us out nativeyogacenter.com All right, let's begin. Hello, welcome to Native Yoga Toddc ast. My special guest today, Andrei Ram. Follow him on his website, innerparadise.org, and follow him on Instagram, @a ndrer am1 . Link in description. He has a new book coming out, Prana nidra. See him on that website too, Prananidra.co. He's gonna fill you in on everything you need to know. So sit back, relax, take a walk, whatever your favorite style of absorbing information through the podcast audio and/or visual style is yours. And all right, get ready for this one. This is going to blow your mind. I'm really delighted to meet Andrei Ram today. Andre, thank you so much for joining me. And can you share with me and the listener how what your day has been like today?

Andrei Ram: 1:56

Pada, thank you for the invitation. Just finished a training on pranamidra, I mean wrong, and I am delightful to be part of your podcast. Actually, it's great also to be part of a podcast and right away meeting someone, you know, for first time. So yeah, excited for this opportunity.

Todd McLaughlin: 2:13

I agree. This is one of my most favorite ways to do it. To come in and just and just like we can hit the ground running with figuring out like what my one of my first questions is is like what drew you to yoga? How did you first come in contact? I love hearing what what like radar people have when yoga starts to come into their sphere. So I'm so curious, what drew you in, or what what attracted you?

Unknown: 2:42

Well, Todd, I have to say that for me, the whole path in yoga-it's been kind of like continuous path. You know, I have to say that it's just like it's impossible to to talk about how I found yoga or how I was able to renew my path with yoga. Not talking a little bit about pretty much like all my life, because as a kid I was born in the states in Massachusetts, but I grew up most of my childhood in Colombia under great influence of the Native American people from down there, and since when I was a kid, I kind of like you know now I realize that I have a different way of perceiving the world, and you know all these labels that now put in nowadays they put into kids, you know, like dyslexia, autism, and all this stuff. You know, like I, it seemed like I had a little bit of all of those, but then throughout the years, of course, I've been able to realize that that little kid actually was having, but had a different way of perceiving reality. And then, when I found yoga in my life, it was kind of like a a way. To me, it's kind of like the perfect language to speak of all these different things that are part of reality, but are hard to put into words or into rational thinking, because it really is a gateway towards the inner world and is a gateway, of course, towards the spirit. And at the end, the essence of the self is the spirit, the individual spirit that we are. And then it's kind of like I I feel that you know somehow I cannot say that Yagua was part of my life, but it's definitely at coherence with the type of life that I've been having in this incarnation.

Todd McLaughlin: 4:28

Yes. Yeah.

Unknown: 4:28

So that's a great way to put it. That's a great

Todd McLaughlin: 4:30

way to explain it. That you can actually see how even if the word yoga or a particular strain of yoga wasn't necessarily identifiable. That if you were to look at your childhood, you could see how yoga was there, even though maybe it wasn't defined in this sort of classical definition. Is that am I am I close to the mark that you're talking about?

Unknown: 4:58

Yeah, yeah, you're right, and you know even in. At the center of this conversation is like is yoga, right? And and the definition of yoga is very tricky. You know, you can go for something like it's really kind of like the the most traditional definition. But you know, as I've been practicing yoga more than three decades, I've been realizing that yoga and you know the whole thing of the union. It means is the capacity to integrate ourselves. You know, because I mean, is is the reality for everyone is that we live in a world that we experience the world in a separated way. Even the the fields of knowledge, you know, like math, that has nothing to do with art or any other topic, so we we experience life and we relate with life in a very separated way. And at the end, yoga is about integrating integrating life, integrating what we are working as a as a as a entity and not as a separated parts. You know, trying to figure out how to put them together into yourself, into your ego, into whatever that might be, right? So to me, yeah, you know, yoga is about finding integrity in life and being able to live life in an integral way with all your capacities and different sides with what we are. So at the end, that makes sense with like that stuff that we are trying to figure out when we're kids, you know, about like figuring out what's real and what's real about

Todd McLaughlin: 6:25

us. Yes, amazing. I like the fact that you even put two seemingly different subjects, like math and art, and I'm getting a sense from you that you can actually see how mathematics and art are similar and related. Are you in that state of mind where you can see how something as organized as mathematics? Like I heard someone the other day say that math is like the only subject that has a right or wrong answer. In every other subject in the world, there is no right or wrong answer, and I thought that was such an interesting thing because then, as I started thinking about, I was like, "Is that really true about math? But I guess from a math equation, it's the equation is either right or it's wrong. You know what I mean? Like, there's no like, well, it could be right. So I guess, and then when I think about art, and like you're in Rome, I had a chance to go to Rome. Wow, the art in Italy is just phenomenal, and I guess I'd love to hear your what you're picking up on now that you're currently in Rome. Like, what sort of beauty are you able to derive out of being around all that architecture art? And then I just I'm curious what your mind is around mathematics.

Unknown: 7:43

Well, I cannot say that my mind is around mathematics. Although you know, I I studied my biology for five years. You know, I have some background in the pure science scientific field. Yeah. But you know, I have to admit that you know I'm not the the math guy. But it's more like the essence of math is actually numbers. You know, like what's I mean? Like we're talking about yoga, we're talking about the essence of the self, we're talking about the essence of reality, and definitely one of those are numbers. You know, what's the essence of math, and why is that math? Of course, you know, it's kind of like the language of reality from math into geometry, geometry marking the the patterns, the basic patterns. Everything has a geometrical pattern, and that geometrical pattern, of of course, it it has to do with numbers, which is the essence of math. And then from that into the art, it's just kind of like art. To me, is the it first of all, is the field that enable us to nurture our spirit. You know, when you are in front of an art piece, you literally perceive that from your spirit before you even translate it into your mind or you move it through the filter of the mind. So definitely, you know, numbers and math being so essential to reality is kind of like the universal language. Just put it like that. You know, it doesn't matter what language we speak. You know, but a mathematician, you know, can understand regardless if it comes from Japan, China, the U.S. South America, or any other place. You know, so definitely is kind of like the basic and most essential language, the coding. You know that is embedded in in in in reality, and then from there, the art expression is just it should be that you know it should be the expression of like our capacity to recreate from creation and being here in Rome, of course, and it's it's so beautiful to see how like this culture is so integrated to the esthetic value, and to me that has to do actually with something that is part of my path, which actually is being able to perceive and to enjoy the different expressions of divine nature in different places. And why Italy became and created the Italian culture that they put so much value into art, into the esthetic value. Why? Because I mean, you see, you come here and you feel this part of Earth. You know, it's kind of like an island. It's not an island, but you know, it's such a narrow piece of land. You know, the peninsula, the Italic Peninsula, that is is almost like a an island, you know, but it's connected to the continent and is in the middle of the Mediterranean, in the middle of of of you is the heart of Europe, and you feel that because this land is kind of like the heart of this continent, you see how like everything that is heart related, it's been inducing and influencing the people here and the culture here, and that's why you know Italy is all about the static. You know, in the art, in the food, everything has to be beautiful here. You know, they they they they cannot do just a car. You know, it has to be a beautiful car. They cannot just do a motorcycle. Have to be beautiful motorcycle, the food like that. You know, everything is about beauty around here, and beauty is a pathway. Actually, talking about yoga, to me, beauty is a pathway towards the divine, to the divinity. We are not perfect; we cannot aim for perfection. And what what we know if God or the of the supreme is is perfect, but indeed we refer to it as the divine. So to me, beauty is a pathway towards spirituality and towards the divine, and that's what you feel here. For example, in Italy, because hay is the heart of Europe.

Todd McLaughlin: 11:30

Yes, man. Yes, Andre, that is a great visual and understanding of of where you are. That's so cool, man. Well, are you? If you had to pick a form of art that you are currently involved in, surely there's something that you're involved in in your life that you feel is your own personal artistic expression. You had made mention prior to us hitting record that you're in the process of launching a book called Prana Nidra, and and I just would love to hear about that. I don't know if that would be your answer to the current art project that you're on, but is can you explain to me how you're blending these two words prana and nidra? I feel like a lot of us have heard the word prana and have this understanding that it can be translated as life force or the the essence of life force, and then nidra. We hear yoga nidra, so or we might know the definition of nidra as like sleep, or in relation to yoga nidra, where we can have someone coach us through almost like a talk meditation that can get the mind to go into that in between place of being in a wakeful consciousness and almost dipping into the sleep consciousness. Maybe we could call it subconscious state. So I'm just really curious what you're learning and wanting to do with this concept called pranamidra.

Unknown: 13:01

Yeah, well, I'll get I'll get there, but I'll start. Okay,

Todd McLaughlin: 13:05

okay, yeah, from where

Unknown: 13:06

you started, which is like, actually, I have a background, have a career on contemporary dance and choreography.

Todd McLaughlin: 13:15

Wow, that

Unknown: 13:15

was prior to my, you know, transitioning into the yoga. Actually, when I met Sridharmamitra who I lived with him for 10 years and learned from him for for 10 years. I was a dancer at that moment, and I was already looking. I was I I was already a yoga practitioner as part of like you know my my dancer training, but I was really looking for something deeper, and that's when I, you know, like as we said, you know, the practice provides all, and that the practice took me to, you know, to to Dharma. But yeah, I mean that the the art is part of my life, and especially in the art of movement in dance. So and it's beautiful because you know dance is just kind of like it's the art, the art art expression in movement. So it's very close to the art of living. You know, we move everything moves. Everything has to life moves. So actually, when you're a dancer or a choreographer, what you your art is life itself because it's it's movement. You know, kind of like other fields in in in in the art is kind of like expressing something from life, but in the dance is expressing lights itself in a beautiful way, in an artistic way. So that has been kind of like something that had been guiding me into this search for integrating my life. And then, so from dance, I start moving into the art of life, the deepest part of aspect of life is the spirit, and throughout my years in the yoga, that's where I've been trying to to contribute to the yoga. You know, the the artistic way to get into the yoga, and of course, I have a. A long path of being able to share with different masters from the tradition, especially in the Sanskrit. And one of the things is like I found that there's such a misunderstanding and mistranslation of all the basic concepts of yoga. Like yama is often translated as restriction, when in reality is caring, and ahimsa is not too much nonviolence; is more non-friction. And brahmacharya is not celibacy; is kind of like that pulse of contemplation that enables you to refine, to find refinement. So this is kind of like one of the principles of my of my yoga practices. As I was telling before, it's kind of like aiming for refinement in order to create beauty and beauty as a pathway towards the divine. So in the artistic side now, in my yoga path, I've been kind of like creating this art of living, which is this art of breathing. So my main field is the pranayama. This is what I've been focusing the most throughout my my practice. Hidharma has so many. He comes from the very psychic lineage from the Himalayas, and even though people recognize him as the teacher that exposed the whole asana world, at the end you know he carries, and that's what I inherited from him. All these other techniques of caring, pranayama, caring for prana, caring for prana, prana vital, vital energy, the the essence of the vital force, and then yama, caring for that type of energy and caring in a beautiful way. If you can care for that in an artistic way, then you can find refinement of life. If you take good care of your breath, then that's how you develop good care of your living. If you are able to refine the way you breathe, then you are able to refine the way you you live, and then you can bring beauty into into your life. Not perfection, because that is not human, but you can bring beauty into your life. So I've been exploring in the maybe because I come from the artistic field. I've been exploring on like bringing not just practicing, but practicing a beautiful way. Practicing with this what brahmachary is to me. Practicing with this constant refinement and the quality of your practice and making your practice beautiful. And then, of course, since my main practice is pranayama, is kind of like breathing in a beautiful way, learning how to manage and to how to to cultivate vital force energy in a beautiful way, and at the end, that also drove me to the pranamidra, which is this aspect of the nidra that people doesn't know that much. People know at least the yoga practitioners know a little bit about the yoga nidra, which at the end is kind of like the put your soul into a rest, not just your body, not just your mind, but your soul. And if you if the soul is resting, then of course the whole system is resting. Your consciousness is resting, your mind is resting, your energy is resting, your body is resting, but pranamidra is a middle stage. It doesn't have kind of like the expectation of putting your soul into rest, but nidra is just learning how to get your physical body into conscious resting. Yoga nidra is aiming for putting your soul to rest, of course temporarily, temporarily. But then pranamidra is in the middle, and what pranamidra is aiming for is putting the energetic system into a resting mode. And if you are able to rest your energy, then of course automatically your physical body rests, and automatically your mind rests. So it's not as deep as the as yoga nidra, but is something that is more. We can even say that is more effective because it's way more accessible. Because in the moment that you learn how to bring your energy system, your vital system to rest, automatically the physical body rests, the mind rests, and I, I was able to found this kind of like lost chapter of the yoga thanks to the practices that I learned from Dharma from the psychic lineage, and because I've been looking for this refinement in life. You cannot bring refinement into life if you are not well rested, and this is actually kind of like a pandemia of the world. The world is just like into a constant manipulation of aiming for success, and then we don't realize, and then we're not acting, but we're overacting. We're not producing, but we're overproducing, and then that's why we're destroying the planet because we're producing more than what we need. We're eating more than what we need, and at the end, in this seeking for the art of living, I found that maybe starting point is the art of resting, because when you rest, you can renew, you can recharge, and you can bring the beauty back into your life.

Todd McLaughlin: 19:55

Wow! Yes, Andre, that is amazing. What a great. Answer. I mean, there's you gave me a lot of information there to start to think about. You know, it's really interesting when you mentioned breathing in a beautiful way. Like, like well, first when you were talking about how, as a dancer and art is a way of expressing, as a dancer, it is a form of art because every movement you make is a way of expressing that beauty that you feel and see. So, I guess I was almost visualizing or seeing you like walking to the subway and having some sort of like, I don't know, special elegant way that you move your body that you you could actually translate that into how you even go down the street, how you carry your energy, how you how you choose to step and walk. Something as simple as that could be turned into such an incredible artistic display, and but then when you mentioned like preserving the beauty of the breath or breathing in a way that's like really artful, I recently saw a thing where mentioning like in the timeline of the history of humanity that there was this point where, once we knew we could get fire and then be able to carry an ember of fire from one place to another and then build a fire from there. Like when you said that, it made me think in a way of like carrying the pranayama, almost like you're holding on to an ember and and keeping it protected and safe until you come to the next environment where you could let it grow and build and kind of reform and reshape and that like what a vital element that was. So I guess just getting that sense from you of like how precious if we were to treat the breath on such a with such care and such like attention, and and the way that you even redefine brahmacharya, or just switched it from like saying this is not just celibacy; it's more of refinement of the way that we engage with something. Which obviously, if we were to relate it to any activity, whether it's our food consumption, our sexual consumption, our or however we want to explain those sort of ideas. Like I can see where if we boil it down a little bit and refine it, then we can see that no, this is more just like an understanding of how where we're really paying attention to the energy of what we're doing. So that's phenomenal. Also incredible that you're bringing attention to the fact, like let's just focus on resting, because you're right. When I I had an episode this week where I needed to lay down, and Andrew sent me a yoga nidra that he did, and he said, "Here, man, maybe you need you need to just do some yoga nidra. And I did, and I listened to it, and it was so amazing. And he did such a phenomenal job, and it blew my mind how much just like getting into that deep restful state created such a healing space. So I guess my next question for you

is: 23:08

Can you talk a little bit more about how we can make breathing more beautiful, more special, more precious, and appreciate? How can we appreciate it more.

Unknown: 23:23

Well, you know, like you, you, you again mentioned that to me, which is the key word. I mean, like we're, I feel like we're missing so much of the yoga because of these mistranslations, and you know, for the audience that know a little bit about yoga, you know, like the yoga is related to a perspective of of the history of consciousness. We tend to think that we are, you know, and and you'll be surprised because, of course, I have a I I've been walking around a lot. So actually, I end up like I started studying my own biology, but I finished majoring and graduating from an anthropology. So that has been also giving me lots of like kind of like a different perspective towards the yoga, and then in the yoga, you know, and as an anthropologist, we tend to think like, oh, this is the history of humanity, of this is the history of of our earth, of this is the history of our galaxy, of this is the history of our universe. Our our our our no no no no. We were the last one to show up our faces here, and for sure, if we keep going this direction, we're going to be the first one to leave, right? But this was was prior to us, and to me, this is the history of consciousness, and in yoga, we we have this perspective of these cycles of consciousness. The yuga, you

might heard about them: 24:46

the Kali Yuga, Dwarpa Yuga, Tetra Yuga, Satya Yuga. So it's kind of like in this movement of the history of consciousness, there are some moments where consciousness is vibrating at a higher frequency, and then our int. Can catch up as humans. We can catch up more. Even the whole evolution from the mineral kingdom to the plant kingdom to the animal kingdom to until we showed up as Homo sapiens sapians. Let's hope that now we can finally move into Homo conscientis, Homo conscientious, something like that. That will be the name.

Todd McLaughlin: 25:22

I like it. Yeah,

Unknown: 25:25

but anyways, you know, like so, like in the in this progression of of of the yugas, there was a moment where the consciousness was very low, and before that, we had great amount of realization and perception of reality. We our mind was able to memorize better, so we didn't need the words, we didn't need the scripture. So it says that you know, in the Kali Yuga, in the lowest state of consciousness, we have to develop the scripture because we were not able to memorize and to recite and to chant all this knowledge, which were not even scriptures, but this knowledge that we were able to memorize and to pass on in an oral way from one generation to the other one, so most of the yoga that we have inherit comes from this Kali Yuga and from the scriptures, and the scripture cannot describe many of the things from the subtle aspects of the self. That is what the yoga give you access

Todd McLaughlin: 26:21

to. Oh, Andrea, we did get a little bit of a glitch. Hold on, for some reason, the I don't know if let me have you try talk again. I heard a little like I see you moving, but I don't see move your head a little bit side to side so I can see. Oh yeah, it's still coming through. The video's working. All right, let me have you try keep talking. Let me see if it's gonna come through. All right. There you are. There you are. Here you again. Yeah. I only lost like the last two or three sentences. You're you're on a roll. I hated to interrupt you, but I just wanted

Unknown: 26:53

to. No, don't worry. I think I. I know the point was like you mentioned you mentioned Yama again. You meant you mentioned caring. You mentioned caring, and to me, we are losing lots of the yoga because of this wrong translation of what yama means. And yama is the principle of the eight limbs of yoga. It's like it's the seat of yoga. That's what we practice. The other way is either we we practice in the body is asana if we practice with the energy is pranayama. But what we practice is yama ni yama, and if yama is restriction, then there's not too much to say about it when it's actually the seeds. But again, you know, switching from this perspective that yama is not restriction and yama is caring. That that's that's that's the starting point. You know that I'm here like the the the link point is like yama is caring, and to me is the center stage of what we do in yoga, and what we do in yoga is cultivating our life so that we can move away from suffering into being able to develop a life of bliss. How through the use of consciousness and the main and most important principle in order to cultivate consciousness is caring, putting awareness, but not just awareness, because caring is a type of awareness that is already it's it's already more beautiful. It's already it has refinement. So, if you put it into pranayama, just to go to to your point on how to like get into this beautiful art of living by into this getting into this beautiful art of breathing, it's like it's we're saying like how we carry the fire and how we protect the fire. The beautiful thing of the prana, which is your right, is the fire of life. We don't have to protect it. What we have to do is not harming life, not harming our. We already have that fire, and there's nothing that can eliminate it. There's nothing that can erase it, but there's many things that we can harm, and we can harm the the life, the prana that we carry by living in an unconscious way. To me, the whole divine willpower it's just and the determination is either like everyone is free. There's free will. Consciousness is the gift that the divine gave to humanity, to our species. Humans, we have consciousness. Animals, they also have nervous system, but they don't. They cannot be aware of what they live. So here you are. You can live not using consciousness on an unconscious way that would lead you to suffering, or you can use consciousness. You will experience more suffering, but then you will be able to cultivate a different type of life towards towards bliss. And then, what's the center point? Well, you have to start by caring for the fire, the life that you carry, which is vital force, which is prana, which is life force itself. And if you put this caring consciousness, not just consciousness, but caring consciousness, refined consciousness into your breath. Then you start to develop this, let's say, this art of living by getting into this art of breathing and breathing in a beautiful way. And as you were saying, that you know, if you breathe in a beautiful way, you will move in a beautiful way. You will interact and. Talk to people in a beautiful way. You will shake hands in a beautiful way, not not just shaking hands. You will be do. You will change the way you shake hands. But everything starts by the center, which is caring, ayama, caring for life force, which is what we have, and using, of course, the divine gift of humanity, which is consciousness. It's not thinking; it's consciousness. We are the only one who can be aware of what we're living or not, and is everyone' choice.

Todd McLaughlin: 30:28

Yes, Andre. Beautiful. I love it. I love the way that you're coming. How you're communicating your experience of yoga. I. I'm. I'm curious. How is this showing up for you? Can you can you give us a snippet of an example of how you are learning to live this and put this into practice in any kind of in in any sort of situation, I mean, I'm always personally trying to stay a little more grounded and aware of what's going on, and and I have stressful moments, and I'm realizing where I can improve in the way that I first interact. I just would love to hear what you're noticing with this sort of awareness as you're putting it into practice, as you move around, working with people, or even when you're quiet in in a quiet space alone, are what kind of realizations are you having these days?

Unknown: 32:17

You know, as I as I think most of the audience is yoga practitioners, and here to answer your question, I would like to share actually these different perspective of the yoga seats, which is again these five principles that are literally the seat of the yoga. If you don't have these principles, if you don't figure out, find out a way how to practice these principles, I mean, like the the fruits of yoga are not going to bear on you, and then you won't be able to translate your yoga practice and to be able to integrate it into your life, so that you can transform your life, you can refine your life, you can enhance your life, and and of course bring beauty to your life, to get closer to the divine, the divine way of living. So I would like to share with you all this perspective of these five principles because this will not just answer your question, but it will kind of like give you kind of like the. And it's not from my side; it's just from this tradition. This is what the tradition has to give to all, so that not just you can just integrate your practice into the world, but you can really transform and and really see the fruits of your practice. So these five principles is the yamas, but again, because of this mistranslation, we cannot put it into into into practice and to apply to the in any daily living and even to the yoga practice on a mat or on a meditation room. So the first principle is ahimsa, and is non-friction, and that's the starting point, because you, in order to interact with life, we have to confront life, and often we have to get into like an exchange of that. What rules life is two poles. There's polarity. There's the positive and there's the negative. There's the right and there's the left, however you want to put it, right? So the whole thing is like when you are able to move in life without friction, then these two polarities they come together and do synergy and they unified, and they come together to create bliss. But when you work with life and interact with life without with friction, then that creates conflict, and from conflict, aggression, and from aggression, violence, and and and unharming, self-harming, not just necessarily with other one, but also there's like the whole Bhagavad Gita is happening within ourselves, and if we don't cannot put together all the different and and opposite parts of our life, and we if we cannot put them together, then we're going to get into an inner conflict all the time. So the first principle is non-friction: how you move in life within your emotions and in your relationship without reducing friction, and that's how you move from conflict into synergy, from from separation into integration. The second one is Satya, which is translated as truth, which is not truth. Is Satya is what's real, not what is truth. Is what's real. Is aiming for what's real, realizing. So, in the most individual and personal stage, that's authenticity. When you're authentic, you show to the world what you want to show to the world, but the world is also able to see what you are not intending to intending to to show to the world. So that's a more realistic picture of yourself instead of just your your true picture, which is just what you want to show to the world. So authenticity, second Satya, third Astaya, which is non-stealing. Is non disrespecting. It's the whole principle of respect. You know, stealing. Well, you can get whatever that was stolen right back. But it's just it's it's just like the the way of disrespecting. It's the worst way to disrespect someone. If I take something from you, but you know, it's not just something material. You know, it's whatever. It's just that the lack of respect, and this is key to the world, because of course we are living in a world that is just like you know we're such a disrespectful world, you know, in the intimate, in the individual, in the collective, in the public, and that's a value that you not just bring transformation to a different world. The fourth is aparigra, the way I present it, which is non non greed, is more is more the lack of not being stingy. You know, like if you're greedy, but if you share, that's fine, great. So it's about generosity. It's the principle of generosity, and the last one is refinement. So the whole yoga practice to me, when I'm on the mat, is just like I'm aiming for where which part of my part is holding friction or tension when I'm doing pranayama? Which part of my breathing is holding tension when I'm doing meditation? Which part of my mind is bringing tension? You know, when I'm doing pratyahara, which is actually the whole nidra, which part of my senses are holding tension, and how I can release this friction, this tension, and then and then in life, you know, how can I interact with like maybe with my partner in the middle of a really heated conversation, and how I can maybe I cannot get away from the conflict, but if I go for reducing the friction within the conflict, that will allow me to find a way out of the conflict and to bring harmony back into the communication, for example. So these five principles is something is so beautiful because it's something that you can put, you know, in practice and to apply to an asana, to a breathing technique, to a meditation technique, to a relaxation technique. But most important is something that would really give you the chance to like not just to bring spirituality into your life, because that could be just a concept, but to be able to change the way how you are relating yourself with reality, with your life, with the people around you-not just humans, right? It's just kind of like, to me, it's just kind of like really the compass that allow us to move from a place of suffering and and and and thickness into a place of lightness and beauty and true freedom, because at the end, freedom is our capacity to set our limits. It's not to be free from limits, and this this is difficult. You know how you set your limits, how you how you set your boundaries, so that you're not restricting yourself or restricting others, but you're really expanding yourself. And to me, these five principles is the compass that enables you to like really bring beauty into life, and bring the practice into life, and bring the spirit into the material life, to bring the spiritual side, which is the essential side of us, into the most material and solid aspect of our living, which is what we are here. We are humans. We're in a physical world. And what's the point of a spirituality that is not showing up his face and expanding our capacities in the material world? You know, what's the point of that? So to me, these five principles are really the compass to integrate all these from the place of practice and from every daily life situation.

Todd McLaughlin: 39:09

Yes, and Andre, that's a such a great explanation. I find it fascinating that a lot of us, myself included, come into a yoga class where I'm using using my physical body. Maybe go to a teacher training. Someone starts to explain yama niyama, and then the mind will go. I think I'll just like wait to get to that kind of stuff. Like that just sounds like too much to think about. Let me just keep focusing on these poses, and but the way that you reframed the defining of each of those terms so that they can be applied in a way that like makes really logical sense on like what I'm doing right here right now instead of it being this sort of foreign dogmatic understanding and you know those of us that grew up in religious backgrounds go oh the 10 Commandments well here they are again and I'm falling right back into another you know dogmatic sort of understanding and and you said like this idea of this the the word yama meaning restraint so right away we have like aversion to that because it's like oh great now you're gonna start telling me all these things I can't do, and you know all these restrictions. So by reframing it, and I guess

I'm curious: 40:27

did the reframing understanding that you just posited come from your own personal meditation work, or was this something that you went and heard a lecture and went, "Oh, now that makes sense" I mean, or. It's probably a blend. I'm sure you're picking up information through your own practice and study, but then really contemplating on it, and therefore you had this sort of, like you said, with Satya instead of just saying truthfulness. And you go, okay, cool. I'm going to tell the truth. All right, I'm just going to tell the truth. That's what I need to do. And then right away, I tell a lie. You know, and it's like, ah, I mess that up really bad. But like to kind of come at it from say reality, I just want to get into the essence of the reality. But I think what's really fascinating how you brought up the non-friction part first, because if I'm having a hard time understanding if what I'm seeing is true reality, if I like what you said, take a step back, try to feel where I'm feeling friction. So instead of trying to look for that answer in the confusion, pull back. Where's the friction? How can I soften that friction? Let me now come back to reality, and then boom, I see a different reality already. So I mean, that's a reality.

Unknown: 42:12

Reality, reality shows its face.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:16

Yeah, when you step back

Unknown: 42:17

into a place of no place, that is

Todd McLaughlin: 42:19

a really cool. It's a very valuable insight. I like that a lot.

Unknown: 42:25

Yeah. So beyond the blend, it's definitely integration. Integration of like that's what you know in this tradition we say like you know the practice. You know, like it says, like you know, kind of like in the Christian tradition, it says something like you know, look first for the kingdom of God and the divine law and everything we follow. Here we say like you know, just practice, and the practice will bring the rest. You know, because it will bring the integration. So of course, just as soon as you start practicing a sincere and authentic way of seeking for what you're seeking, self-realization-that's actually the actual practice, and that will attract and will kind of like synchronize all the events and people that will keep on nurturing your path. You know, so it comes both from the inside as a as searching for the inner self-realization, but that inner self-realization activates also this beautiful divine symphonic synchronicity that starts to bring the right people into your path, and of course, because I've been in the practice so long, I've been able to like having the fortune to get into a beautiful synchronicity of divine. You know, you know, divine people is everyone to me, but you know, very special practitioners that, of course, had been walking this path longer. Some of them that come from a tradition that is closer to the East. So one of them was actually Satish Kumar, and Satish Kumar is this amazing character that works in the. He has. He was co-director of the Shumari College in London, which is this college on environmental sciences. You know, pretty much on the whole theory of Gaia, that the Earth is not just a planet, a rock, a mineral. It has a soul. It's a living planet, and it has a soul. It has also kind of like a spiritual aspect, you know. And it's and they've been in the Shimahari College. They develop all these principles from the spirituality, from from the Vedas, and they put it into the science of biology to start getting into new science towards caring yama for the environment. So Satish was this guy that he was a he comes from this tradition that is a very hardcore monastic tradition in India, the one that they wear the the face mask face mask all the time. It will come to me

Todd McLaughlin: 44:40

the Jains.

Unknown: 44:41

Exactly, exactly. He was one of those monks, and then he walked back in the 70s, 80s. He walked all the countries that were developing nuclear power, you know, trying to like make consciousness, like hey, be careful what we're doing. You know, like you are developing this technique, this producing this energy, but you don't have the full realization on not just how to produce it, but also how to eliminate it if something happens. So please don't use it until you have the whole picture. You know, it's just like the kids just found the matches and start playing around with the matches before knowing how to turn off a match, but of course, when it's a nuclear match, then you can get into trouble, as we can see, right? So he walked literally walk all these countries, kind of like bringing awareness into that, and that's why he became so venues, popular, were recognized, and then he moved into the into really developing a new understanding of biology and the scientific by integrating the the spiritual. So he was born in a tradition where Sanskrit. He was born with the Sanskrit in his mouth, and he says like the problem is that people think that they they try to do a linguistic linguistic translation of the Sanskrit, but the Sanskrit is a language that is a vibratory language. It's not syntagmatic language. It's not based on a certain unit of meaning; is based on vibration. So, for example, brich, brich, which is tree, it's the vibration that emanates from the tree. And if you put that frequency, that vibratory frequency, into sound, it creates brich. So, it's not really. To a unit of meaning is vibratory language. So you cannot translate the Sanskrit with one word. You have to translate the Sanskrit with a sense. And he was the one who like brought this light onto my in in this specific aspect, because of course, like everyone else, I was practicing yoga, trying to find this information in the books, all the books. Yama is restriction. Ahimsa is nonviolence. Brahmacharya is celibacy, and he was like, "Hey, listen, you know, I was born in the Sanskrit tradition, and you got it all wrong. He he plied out. He plied out when he when I told him that all the books, all the yoga books were translating yama as a restriction. It was like, oh my goodness gracious! Now I understand why the yoga world is crazy and people are and practice yoga. You know, that's

Todd McLaughlin: 47:04

fascinating. That's a fascinating concept. Like, no wonder there's all these disparate ideas and information because the entire basis of the understanding of it was got has been gotten all wrong.

Unknown: 47:20

Exactly.

Todd McLaughlin: 47:20

Wow.

Unknown: 47:22

From the very beginning, from the definition that you got it.

Todd McLaughlin: 47:26

Wow. Well, well, I'm glad that you're bringing a little light. You're bringing a lot of light to that, to this idea, to this concept, that's fascinating. Oh man, the whole

Unknown: 47:37

yoga practice changes in the moment that you start to apply these principles. In the, I don't want to say in the right way, as you can see, I already I'm not into the right or wrong. I don't believe that stuff, but when you can really bring it into the real, into the realistic aspect.

Todd McLaughlin: 47:51

Yes. Well, do you have a little spin for us on the niyamas then?

Unknown: 47:57

Yes. So yama is caring, and then what Satish was sharing is that ni is this vibratory particle that means to amplify, right? So like it's an amplifier. Ni, whenever you hear the knee, is an amplifier, as opposed to like a

Todd McLaughlin: 48:16

negation. I always kind of got this idea that the knee is like the negation. It's like saying the opposite. I'm supposed to tell

Unknown: 48:21

you that if the the ethical principle and you saying amplified, and then to the individual, and then you you cannot practice ahimsa or brahmacharya in doing a downward facing dog, well then then just like that's it, it's it's over. So ni is a particle that amplifies. So niyama is that that amplifies yama. So if niyama is the seeds, niyama are kind of like the principle that enable you to fertilize to grow up your practice. So the first one is saucha, and saucha is well we we often translate as purity, but purity seems like oh you have to clean something. It's more like it's very radical, you know, because you have to get closer into maybe innocence than purity. It's just kind of like the primal state. Go back to the primal state. You practice, practice. If it's your first time, you practice, and it might be your last. Don't don't go like, oh, I am the the yoga teacher, I am the yoga practitioner, I know how it is, because then you kill your possibility to expand your realization, and that's the problem with science. You know, science used to be something that it was about like realizing what we don't know, and now it's about reaffirming and imposing and officializing certain truth, scientific truth. So that's why, kind of like we're getting like restricted with the science because the science used to be to realize what we don't know, not to reconfirm what we already know. So purity is more than purity. It's like kind of like this primal, this primal state of of innocence, the primal innocence. I put it like that. It's not. I think there's a word in in to be naive. It's not to be naive, all right. But it's just to get into this primal stage where consciousness has all the capacities to perceive and also, and then to perceive also beyond knowledge, then the second one is Santosha, which sometimes we translate as contentment, equanimity. But he said that is more about like aiming for the middle point. It's very similar to the Buddhist vision of like the middle way. You know, aiming for the middle point because the middle point is the one that we convert, where where everything comes together from the two sides, the two the two opposite polarities. They come together and they do synergy. So that's why you always have to aim for the middle point in order to integrate the the opposite sides. Is to

Todd McLaughlin: 50:49

yes.

Unknown: 50:50

Otherwise, it's going to create conflict again, and it's going to create disassociation and separation. But when you are constantly aiming for the middle point, and you can seat yourself, establish yourself in the middle point, then you can bring together the two sides, regardless word what two sides is. I mean, like it's crazy because look at the world. You know, I mean, you know, of course I'm American. And look what is happening, you know. Like no politics, please, please. I'm not talking about politics, but you know, just to put this principle, like you know, the left is good for something, but it's not good for the other stuff. The right is good for something, but it's not good for the other stuff. So instead of like fighting, who has the power? Why don't we come together? Okay, the left they do the social stuff, the right they do the money stuff. You know, let's put it together. You know, instead of like, but that's the problem. You know, we just one side or the other one. Instead, like aiming for the middle point is that point where it's not that one is ruling over the other one, but no, we realize that the quality and and the capacities of this side they are good for this, and the capacities are good. So you don't stick your nose in the other side because you're not good at that. But again, it's the whole thing of yoga synergy, and then let's embrace our capacities. You know, let's put someone to work for the people while the other ones are making the money. Let's put them together, and then everyone is going to have like wealth or you know, yeah, wealth to put it just into that very solid point. The third one is tapa, and tapa is the fire that cooks, the fire that generates something, that refines something. So actually, that's desire, and you know, often we hear like desires the enemy. Desires are the enemy because they cover up the desire, but desire is the force of the spirit is the essential force, not is not as as they said that everything starts with a good idea. No, no, no. Before the good idea, there has to be some burning desire that then lights up that good idea. So the starting point is desire, and desire is the strength, is the force of the spirit. So, but of course, this this pure desire is desire to refine, to get rid of whatever is not is is is disturbing your life, to get rid of whatever is disturbing your good health, to get rid of whatever is disturbing your harmony, your emotions, disturbing your mental discernment. So it's a fire of purification, but it's a fire. It's the pure fire. The pure fire is already fire of purification. is is is the the the fire of purity that can regenerate your primal divine state. So it's the pure. That's what tapas is. Is this is is is the desire of the spirit to put it like that. Otherwise, you know you cannot develop will, and if you don't have willpower, then you you can get into the best intentions, but nothing is going to happen because you cannot go into the action. And when you go into the action field, that's when you can transform ideas. Doesn't transform, but transform is actions. So again, you know this is radical for the spirituality because sometimes it takes you to a place that is just kind of like intangible, but actually this is taking you into the real thing, like materializes stuff, put it into action, put it into the field of action. Then the fourth, niyama is a zwarya, which is they they translate it often as a study of the scriptures. No, because the scriptures were like actually they have to develop the scriptures. It's the study of the self. So it's what marks actually the direction. Whatever you do, first start with yourself. Go with him. You cannot get to understand everything from the outside, but you can perceive everything from the outside. You can you cannot know everything, but you can perceive everything. And the way to perceive everything is by going inwardly. This is so related to pratyahara, interiorizing your perception, your sensorial perception, and then you can expand your perception. So you have to go within. You cannot go without because without you're, you know, towards the external you're limited. But towards the inside, you're unlimited. And if you can get into the realization of your inner universe, it's a reflection of the outer universe. So if you can realize how your inner universe works, then you will realize how the outer and how reality and material reality works, how the external world, the external reality works, and then so that's swariaya, self-study. Go with it first. Focus on yourself before you try to like figure out something out of yourself. And then the fifth one, and look that already all these principles are fertilizing the first, the first, the other five. You know, it's just kind of like amplifying the other five. And then the last one is Ishvara Pranidanaha, which is surrendering to the Supreme. If you want to aim, if you if you just don't want self-realization, but you want Supreme self-realization, if you want to realize the Supreme, the biggest picture, the complete picture, there's you cannot own it. You but you can become part of it, so you have to surrender to it. You cannot own it, but you can surrender to it. You can become part of it. You can unify with it. So then, and it's so beautiful because it says Ishwara is the supreme. But it's not talking about God. It said like just surrender to the supreme. So maybe by surrender to the supreme, at some point you reach the supreme, supreme realization of the supreme source. But if. So beautiful because it's more like it's more accessible. It says just surrender to the supreme. So whatever is supreme than you, surrender to it. So stop trying to control time. Surrender to time. Start trying to control the breath. Surrender to the breath. Start trying to control space. Start trying to control the earth. Start trying to control nature, start trying to control love, start trying to control your your partner. Is a woman or a man? Start trying to control that. Surrender to love. Surrender to what's supreme from you. Surrender, surrender to whatever is supreme from you, and then you will become part of it. And then that will, and if you want to say it, empowers you. That will bring the greatness towards you that will make you supreme because you become part of the supreme and of course stop trying to control death. Surrender to it, and then you will be able to surrender to life. Start trying to control life. Surrender to life, and then life will guide you by itself. The power be beyond life force, which is the divine power, will guide you.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:24

That was moving, Andre. God, you got me moved.

Unknown: 57:33

I'm glad if we don't move, expression of life. Ah,

Todd McLaughlin: 57:42

I just I'm a little speechless just because that that really that just opened up a lot for me. Thank you. That's really cool.

Unknown: 57:52

It did for me too, brother.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:56

Yeah, I guess I, I just didn't see it like that. I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't grasping it in that in that way. I wasn't, I wasn't catching on to it. So I think you just really helped me. Thank you. That was amazing. You know, I, I just even the way that you use the word the the amplification slash fertilization, because then if I just then pick the ahimsa and understand that as learning observing where the friction is, and then if I want to add a little fertilizer to that experience, and I start with the first one, with the salvia, so purity, and you you had said something like more of like a going back into the the I don't know primal is the word that you use, but something of like the primal energy of what pure, what pure, yeah, innocence. So then, if I just start to put a little innocence fertilizer on my on my himsa, my friction, and then I go, what is that even? So then, it's like the dynamism of putting these two ways of relating to something. Wow. So then, if I just were to do the same

Unknown: 59:15

thing with Santosha and Satya, it's just like it matches, and then it

Todd McLaughlin: 59:19

matches. It

Unknown: 59:20

brings coherence, and that's the problem. You know, we're lacking so much coherence in the world. There's so much information, but there's lack of coherence. And in the yoga, not to mention about the yoga man, the yoga is lacking coherence like probably no other field.

Todd McLaughlin: 59:37

Wow. Well, Andre, you know Andrew. Thank you, Andrew, for introducing us. He he prepared me. He said, you know, he he was like, you know, I'm really excited that you were able to line up that interview with with Andre because he really is really fascinating, amazing person. So he's right. You you really thank you. You gave me so much today. I want to be respectful of your time. I want to keep asking you more and more questions, but perhaps you'll be kind enough to join me again in the future, and we could continue this conversation. You know, and and I what was so fun today is I really just didn't even get a chance to do any. I try to always do research and study and find out what am I, who am I gonna, who am I gonna encounter, and today I just didn't, I I didn't want to in a way because I love the the surprise element, and you really surprised me in the sense that I feel like I really learned a lot from hearing everything that you had to say and share, so I just I am very grateful. Thank you so much. Thank you,

Unknown: 1:00:41

Todd. Thank you for trusting. Thank you for trusting Andrew. I know that it's easy to trust Andrew. You know, like it's not. It's not the words. You know, it's what people express with their life. So yeah, that's that's that's that Satya. You know when you can really, as you said, you know, step back and then just let the the real reality and authenticity express by itself, express what's real. So thank you, thank you for trusting and thank you for inviting me here. And of course, man, I'll be more than happy to be part of. Your world, and I'm so happy also to be back into at least having my voice back in in the U.S. Because of course, growing up abroad is something like you know you you end up missing you know the land where you were born you know and it's something that I mean there's so much going on now in the states you know I go all around the world literally all the time I'm on the path Europe Asia but it's you know I'm always craving. I'm going back and just giving a hand, you know,

Todd McLaughlin: 1:01:37

yeah,

Unknown: 1:01:38

to to the people, you know, to to the to to the land of the, you know, to the land of the free, and just really really helping people to like really live in the land of the free, you know, and and be brave, be be the home of the brave is when we will be brave to love, and be brave to bring back the United States, United States, because there's so much separation right now. We have to come back because this is our greatest, you know, unity, and we've been we're losing that, you know. And again, you know, let's hope that we can bring some Santosha there, and come together and say, like, look, brother, you know, don't don't come here into this side. Just please, do what you have to do, what you're good for, and then just focus on what you are good at, and the other one is good at, you know, and then just really come together. You know, this is this is our greatness. Is yoga is is united. Is United States of America is not separated states of America or in conflict, the states of America.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:02:36

Yes, couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, Andre. Well, I guess that's a good note to leave on. I don't

Unknown: 1:02:49

know the the

Todd McLaughlin: 1:02:50

yoga the the yoga states of America, yeah, right on, and the yoga states of Europe as well. I mean, like on a global level. I mean, and I know, I know, we gotta. It's crazy. I liked how you kind of said too that there's, you know, there'll be an upgrade, and it's almost like it takes time to process to kind of come up to the next stage of consciousness, and even the concept that you brought out, you know, half jokingly, but interestingly enough, I mean, at some point we are going to transition from Homo sapiens into the next version of Homo. Would you use conscient? Conscient? Yeah, Homo consciousness. It has to have Latin. Well, what if you just nailed it? What if you're the first? I mean, it doesn't matter who's the first or the last or the middle. But I mean, I think, what if we just transitioned over into the next era just right now? Like that was the beginning of the of the new Homo conscienti.

Unknown: 1:03:56

Be my honor, man. But of course, I'm not the first, man. Whatever I'm sharing with you, we know from someone else. But to stop, you know, just put up labeling the the personal name. You know, it's a collective name. Yeah.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:04:08

Oh my gosh, how fun! All right. Well, thank you, Andre. I can't wait to I can't wait to hang out with you in person. I have a feeling it's coming.

Unknown: 1:04:18

It's coming.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:04:18

All right, for

Unknown: 1:04:19

sure, bro. Thanks, man. All the best for you and all the people listening.

Todd McLaughlin: 1:04:22

Thank you. Native Yoga Todd Cast is produced by myself. The theme music is Dreamed Up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know. If there's room for improvement, I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of, what I could improve, and if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native Yoga Center. You can find us at NativeYogasCenter.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it, and review, and join us next time.

Unknown: 1:05:15

Well, yeah, I know you.