Jo Stewart | Artist Turned Aerial Yoga Revolutionary

Jo Stewart is an esteemed yoga teacher based in Melbourne, Australia, with over 20 years of experience in teaching yoga. Her journey began with art-infused Zen philosophy and later transitioned her artistry into a full-time vocation of yoga instruction. Jo specializes in Iyengar and aerial yoga, and she has recently authored a book titled "The Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga Book." She is also the host of the Flow Artist Podcast and is committed to fostering inclusivity and accessibility in yoga practices. Jo operates her own studio, which she meticulously designed to combine her love for yoga and teaching.Thanks for listening to this episode. 

Visit Jo here: https://gardenofyoga.com.au/

Key Takeaways:

• Jo Stewart's yoga path is deeply intertwined with art and Zen philosophy, leading her to a long-standing teaching career.
• Her book, "The Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga Book," integrates traditional yoga principles with modern aerial yoga, providing inclusive and adaptable methods.
• Building a sustainable yoga business requires understanding of personal and entrepreneurial limits, with Jo advocating for balance and carefully managed growth.
• Jo promotes aerial yoga as an accessible practice that encourages playfulness and therapeutic benefits, supporting diverse student needs, including those with PTSD or chronic pain.
• The role of podcasts and platforms in fostering meaningful connections and enhancing professional growth in the yoga community is discussed.

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Thank you Bryce Allyn for the show tunes. Check out Bryce’s website: bryceallynband.comand sign up on his newsletter to stay in touch. Listen here to his original music from his bands Boxelder, B-Liminal and Bryce Allyn Band on Spotify.

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Transcript

Todd McLaughlin: 0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddc ast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work, and beyond. Follow us at @ Native Yoga, and check us out at n ativey oga center.com All right, let's begin. Hello, and welcome to Native Yoga Toddc ast. I bring to you today my special guest, Jo Stewart. Jo's website is Garden of yoga.com.au She is joining us from Australia, the beautiful city of Melbourne in Victoria. She is the author of Eight Limbs of Ariel Yoga book, of which you can order if you're in the US and UK currently via the link in the description. You can also visit her on her website, and you can find the book anywhere books are sold. She is the host of the podcast called The Flow Artist Podcast, her Instagram handle is at @ Garden of Yoga, and Jo is a lovely yoga teacher who is really specialized in aerial yoga. So today I have a chance to introduce you to a lot of the different concepts, ideas, teaching methodology, insights into how to conduct an aerial yoga class, benefits that aerial yoga can bring to students. Perhaps you've never tried aerial aerial yoga, maybe this will inspire you to branch out. Go to a local aerial yoga studio near you, and/or next time you're visiting a metropolis that has aerial yoga, you can give it a try and see if it's something that speaks to you. I really hope you enjoy this episode. It is a pleasure and a privilege to offer this to you. If you get enjoyment out of it and want to share, we love that. Thank you so much. If you send us any messages, any notes, we really appreciate that. All right. Well, on that note, let's begin. I am very excited to be here with Jo Stewart. Jo, thanks for joining me today. How is your day going? I know you're in Australia, so it must be evening in your time.

Jo Stewart: Yeah, it's 8: 2:53

30pm Um, had a super chill day today. It's actually my day off, midweek weekend on Wednesday. I went for a swim. I went to the organic shop. I just like tried to be out in the sunshine as much as possible, make the most of it, wash my laundry. So, yeah, very chill day. And delighted to be talking to you tonight. Thanks so much for having me on your podcast, Todd.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:16

Well, I really appreciate it. Thank you. I know if we're spring here in the US, it's fall there, so if you go for a swim and you live in Victoria, where it can be kind of cool. Are you talking about a public pool, or are you going

Unknown: 3:27

to, yeah, public pool? And I went indoors, and I also had a sauna.

Todd McLaughlin: 3:31

All right, fair enough. Well, that's cool. I saw that you are, you've been practicing and teaching yoga for quite some time. Can you tell me a little bit about your entry into the journey of yoga practice.

Unknown: 3:45

Yeah, so I've been teaching for about 20 years, and actually my introduction to yoga came through art. So I started going to a painting class when I was about six, sumie painting, so ink brush painting, which has a lot of zen philosophy as part of that practice, and my teacher, Richard Litikate, is also a yoga teacher, so he always taught us meditation as part of the painting process, and sometimes movement as well, and like the ritual of preparing to paint is like a meditation, like you use your sumi, your ink stick in your suzuri, your ink stone, and like the action of mixing the ink is very calming and relaxing, and it's a very, it's a art form that's very much about the state of mind versus what you actually create. So I had that introduction to both, like meditation and creativity, when I was a kid, and went on to go to art school, and that's when things really shifted, art wise, because it went from being something that was always just for my own enjoyment and something that was fun and easy to something that was like a lot more pressure and expectation and a lot more questioning yourself as part of the art school journey, so I went to a yoga class and I really. She loved it, and continued to practice all the time I was like studying, and like thought that maybe teaching yoga could be like a fulfilling kind of day job to support me as an artist, and quickly realized, like through my teacher training, and when I started teaching, that life would actually be a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable if I wasn't trying to use art as a way to like make my money, and I really focused on yoga teaching more as a vocation, and art just kind of shifted into back into a hobby, really like just something I could do for fun and something I could do for me, but actually I feel like I get to use a lot of creative energy and even get into that same kind of flow state, present moment awareness teaching that I did creating art, so it's very much a similar state of mind for me.

Todd McLaughlin: 5:54

Nice, amazing. And so, when you entered into your first yoga class, what style are you practicing? Iyengar yoga. Yeah,

Unknown: 6:01

it was an Iyengar class.

Todd McLaughlin: 6:02

I know Iyengar is big in Australia. There's a lot of great Iyengar teachers. That's cool. So, were you..

Unknown: 6:07

and it was the 90s as well. So, I think most established yoga schools were Iyengar schools in those days.

Todd McLaughlin: 6:15

Yeah, good point. Can you relay a little bit about what you remember in your first experience, because yoga in the 90s was a unique experience compared to the amount of exposure that we have to it today. Can you tell me a little bit about some of the thoughts and feelings you had after your first class?

Unknown: 6:34

Like, it was a little upstairs studio. I remember we definitely started with legs up the wall, and I remember being corrected for not being lying straight on the ground when I put my legs up the wall, which is very much part of the Iyengar experience, and like it was a friendly class, and it was kind of like it was a neighborhood studio, so like a kind of a friendly community of quirky regulars who would go there, and I realized that while I enjoyed that experience and I think that Iyengar has like that modality really works for some people, it wasn't the best fit for me personally, like I chafed a bit about being corrected and being told what to do, and I also found it hard to stay present and focused with that format of the teacher demonstrates a pose, and then you do the pose, and then you go back and look at the teacher demonstrate another pose, and then you go do the pose. So, a style that flows, I think, works better for me, and I also prefer not knowing what's coming next, like I feel like that helps me stay present if we're all in it together with the teacher and the students moving together, which doesn't always work, like there's something complicated coming up next, or something that's got a few variations that need their own demonstrations, then demonstrating really makes sense, but I like being in it versus that shift from watching it to doing it.

Todd McLaughlin: 8:08

Yeah, that's a really good point, and that's that is an interesting distinction between two styles of teaching. What was your first intro into a vinyasa flow practice that did you then from that one class go, and obviously there was no internet at this point, so we're not going and searching. Where do I go? So, did you have to go through word of mouth, or was there even a vinyasa flow influence at that time period?

Unknown: 8:33

So, yeah, even more randomly, my mum got into yoga at about the same time, and I think it was because a yoga class started at her work. She has a science background. She worked in research at a major hospital, and it was for all of the hospital staff, but you could bring friends as well. So she brought me along to some of her work yoga classes with a teacher, Sophie Lefeuv, and Sophie's style. She also came from an Iyengar background, but it was much more flowing, and it wasn't necessarily like an Ishtanga Vinyasa kind of flow, or even like a power flow kind of high energy Vinyasa practice, but it was that sense of the movements between the poses were as important as the poses themselves, so it wasn't a stop-start kind of action.

Todd McLaughlin: 9:26

Very cool. Well, and then to fast forward, I noticed that you've recently written a book called Eight Limbs of Aerial Yoga Book, and I'm curious, then what was your trajectory to then get passionate about aerial yoga,

Unknown: 9:44

so that was a holiday adventure. So I was on holiday with my husband, Ron, in San Francisco, and one of the things I like to do when I go to new places is check out local yoga classes, and that was an aerial yoga class, I think it was called Firefly Yoga, and. So it was at a cool, like, upstairs loft style studio in the Mission District, and we'd been like walking around all day on the pavements, feeling pretty tired, and just that feeling of being in the hammock, like floating in the fabric, and that decompression feeling after pounding the pavements all day, like I really enjoyed it at the time, and I felt so good afterwards that I really wanted to keep doing it, and at that time there weren't any local student studios or teachers that I knew of in my hometown, Melbourne, so the closest I could get was I signed up to a mailing list of a Brisbane Aerial Yoga Studio, and just luckily timewise, they organized the first Australian teacher training with Christopher Harrison from Anti Gravity Yoga, maybe a few months after that. So, after doing the one class, I went up to the Gold Coast Olympic Village for maybe like eight or 10 days of intensive aerial yoga teacher training, training, and then after that built my own studio, so that I could do it at home.

Todd McLaughlin: 11:09

Nice, amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about why you love aerial yoga?

Unknown: 11:17

I really love how it feels like we were talking a little bit about how I enjoy the flow between poses, and the fabric just allows you to flow in so many different directions. It's almost a similar feeling to moving in water, so it supports you, but it can also provide resistance. It can be unpredictable, so say, even doing something like a city band as a little bridge pose, if you're lying in the hammock with your knees bent, suddenly that's a whole body stability adventure in a different way to being on the ground, so if you have a distractible state of mind that needs present moment things to help you stay present, it's great with that. It feels really freeing and playful and fun to move in the fabric, like a lot of movements become more accessible, like the difference between being able to do a handstand, say at a solid wall, and then in the middle of the room without the wall, they're worlds apart,

Todd McLaughlin: 12:23

but

Unknown: 12:23

the hammock gives you a lot of different in-between support options, so it's like you've got this space to kind of hone some of the skills that you need for inversions and for balancing postures, but you've got this really helpful support of the fabric to help you with that, and it means that those poses can be safer and more accessible for a much wider range of people, and I love that as well, because people get to surprise themselves and feel like their range of possibilities is being expanded.

Todd McLaughlin: 12:56

Yeah, that's cool. I hear ya. I, you know, one of the common things we'll hear from folks is when they're coming to their first yoga class, or for somewhere where they ask you, what do you do, and you say, well, I teach yoga, and they say, oh, I can't do yoga because I'm not flexible, like there's these classic things that we hear a lot, and then we let them know that that's not true, and there's a way that they can get started. So, in the world of aerial yoga, what are some of the classic things you hear from folks that, where there's hesitation or resistance, and what is your, what, how do you typically answer that sort of feedback?

Unknown: 13:31

Well, I think even more so than a more floor-based yoga practice, like a more traditional yoga practice, I think we already see a bit more representation of different ages, different body types, more visible, accessible yoga people using different props. Most of the imagery that we see around aerial yoga looks like circus performers, so really young, very flexible, often very thin, and doing what looks like circus poses. So there is absolutely the perception from people that they won't be able to do that or they'll hurt themselves trying, or it's just not for them. So that is actually one of my main goals with my book, to really share the accessible and the therapeutic aspects of this practice, because I think in a lot of ways it can actually be more adaptable than a floor-based practice, because you've got this super helpful prop that brings the level of the floor up to you and could support your balance in all these different ways, so I talk about that with people. My oldest student has been 85 and I work with people with all different health conditions, and I work with a lot of neurodivergent students, as well, like it can be really helpful for proprioception, even like there's so many different ways you can use it in a sensory way, which we can probably go into a bit later, but I just kind of share who my community is, and I've tried to really represent. And in my book, as well, like one of the models, Maggie, she's amazing, she's 75 another one of the models, Wendy, she's autistic and has ADHD, and has shared her own lived experience as well, of feeling like always being the biggest person in the yoga space, and never feeling like comfortable in that space, and how working with the hammock has really helped with that, so I do try and really like just share all the possibilities. Yeah, because it's not like just what you see on Instagram at all.

Todd McLaughlin: 15:32

Yeah, great point. I'm curious, can you? I, so I had a similar excitement for the hammock, and my wife and I thought, well, let's go ahead and at least have one rigged in our studio, and we have a drop ceiling, so like there's, you know, beams up high, metal beams, and then there's a, you know, ceiling kind of in between all the stuff above it, and so when I had the contractor come in, he's like, well, what we're gonna have to do is, you know, stabilize against these beams, so I'm going to build this cross beam here and this other cross beam there, and I'll be able to hold someone up to 400 pounds, and so by the time he welded all that together, and we mounted the first one, and I purchased a swing, and I added up the cost of it all, I was like, okay, I don't think I'm going to be doing this in my studio, because it was like a big investment, and then obviously safety, and making sure if people are hanging from a ceiling, you know, you got to make sure it's stable, right? You don't want to like put this thing on a flimsy tree branch somewhere. So, can can you tell me a little bit about what your process of building your studio out to do this, and some of the.. I mean, we have to go into the economics of it, but just some of the balancing in terms of a business and the amount of money we put into.. Can you tell me a little bit about how all that shook down for you?

Unknown: 16:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you're completely right, like it is one of the big challenges. Alternative option, they do sell good quality portable rigs, so if you don't own your space or you don't have a long lease, or maybe you want to teach in different spaces, like that is another option. Just get a bunch of portable rigs, but they will get in your way, and you need a certain amount of space to do them. So we, like me and my husband, were like already looking to buy a place, which is already a massive privilege, which is not necessarily an option for a lot of yoga teachers. So, super grateful to have that opportunity. And we actually started out like looking for warehouse spaces that we could live in and use as a yoga teacher space, but just where we live in Melbourne's inner north, those places are already all gone. They were all converted, they were all, you know, or they were enormous. So we ended up getting a little house with a big shed out the back, and I got my shed engineered so that it would be strong enough to support at that time it was three hammocks, and it was still like a bit of an engineering cost, I think it was like 800 Australian dollars, so and then the building works as well, and that was quite stressful. So, yes, had shed studio for a while, and like slowly build up my business just with those three people at a time,

Todd McLaughlin: 18:12

nice.

Unknown: 18:13

And then saved up, got permits, and finally built our bigger space, which, when we originally built it, it was going to be for a maximum of eight people in the hammocks, since Covid and social distancing, I've since scaled it back to six people. Like, I feel like after we had a lot of distance regulations in Australia, where I had to teach classes of only four, going back to eight seemed like too many and too squeezy. So now my aerial yoga classes are for six people max, and I do teach floor-based yoga classes as well, and that is like room for eight people on the floor or 12 at a squeeze. And honestly, I think the reason why my business works is because we already own our place, so it's like the one mortgage for everything, and I teach all the classes at the moment.

Todd McLaughlin: 19:03

Yeah,

Unknown: 19:03

so Ryan has another job, and he did teach, you know, when he had a different work situation, but now he's got a busy job and a lot of side projects. So, yeah, I just teach all the classes, and I couldn't really afford to have a teaching team, like with a maximum of six people in each class, so that's what's working for now. Like, maybe in the future it will be different, and I could also go the model of hiring my space to other teachers, which I have done in the past for workshops and things, but like I don't know how people make it work, like home studio teaching all the classes is like my comfort zone, and yeah, the thought of like having to pay studio rent, and then you know, your living space, and it just seems like a much bigger and more stressful and more risky proposition to me.

Todd McLaughlin: 19:54

Yeah. Oh, great point. Well, thank you for being so honest about how you've been able to. Do everything you do, and I love hearing all those details, because I think for those of us listening that are either curious about getting started or currently have some sort of business operation, we're always like trying to figure out how can I do this or how can I get involved in this. So I think, thank you so much for sharing all that. Do you, I mean, how many classes a day are you teaching? How many days a week? Because if you're, I, my wife and I are similar, we have a studio that we rent, but we teach 90% of the classes on our, on our own, because the economics of it just works better that way. But it does require us to teach six days a week, and so I'm curious, what, what is your, how do you, how do you framework your schedule?

Unknown: 20:43

Yeah, so I teach five days a week.

Todd McLaughlin: 20:45

Yeah,

Unknown: 20:45

I have like Wednesdays and Sundays off, and I do teach some other classes as well as my home space. So I do teach some community classes for my local council, which I love, because I still get paid by the council, but everyone can attend for free, and that those are chair yoga classes at the moment, and I teach like another chair yoga classes at a local nursing home, and I've taught corporate classes in the in the past and private classes as well, both in my home studio and sometimes other places as well, so it's in the mix, like a busy week for me is about 15 classes, and a chill week for me is about 12 classes, and you feel the difference in between 12 classes a week and the 15 classes a week, for sure.

Todd McLaughlin: 21:33

Yes. Amazing. Well, are you.. have you.. it sounds like you're really passionate about it. Obviously, you need to be passionate about this to really make it work. I find I laughed a little or got a little chuckle when I heard you mention that you, the idea that when you love what you do and you want to turn what you love into how you make a living, that that puts pressure on the love aspect and kind of has it's challenging, so when you mentioned, like, okay, I love art, but then as it became more demanding, and that pressure placed on you caused you to say, well, maybe I'll keep art as my hobby, so I can love it. Most people feel like to be able to teach yoga is almost like a form, it is a form of art, to be able to do it and make a living would be a dream come true, and so I think the fact that you used yoga as your career path, so they could keep art as your pretty classic way to go. So, um, can you tell me a little bit about how that's worked for you, and to be able to maintain still the passion that you have for yoga, and still it be, and have it be your job? Can you talk a little bit about that work-life balance and how you maintain your inspiration?

Unknown: 22:46

Well, actually, I should as well give credit where it's due to run. My husband, who he's a web developer, so anything technology with our business he does. So he built my website when Covid came, he really helped me get set up with the online classes and create an online library, and like having someone to help with all of the tech sides of running a yoga business is super helpful, and I think at least with, like, with art, why that's even more challenging is often you need to put money in to even get started, like you've got to buy materials, you've got to have space, like it can be a big financial investment as well as the time investment, and like no guarantees, like who knows if you're going to sell your pieces at your exhibition, whereas at least with yoga, if something doesn't work out often, it's just your time that you've lost. So, if you teach that class and only one or two people show up, like you don't make that much money from that class, but it's not like doing an exhibition where you've put in months of work and you don't sell anything, so it's a little bit more scalable, I would say, and I think I was also just really lucky that I started teaching in the late 90s. Like, I think it would be harder these days to establish yourself as a full-time teacher, because the wage I earned when I first left yoga teacher training, $60 Australian per hour, I still see classes being advertised at that rate 20 years later, and everything else is so much more expensive. So, if you're trying to make it work teaching at other studios and at gyms, like that's a lot of classes to get anything near what you could live on. So, I'd really encourage people to try and get their own thing going, like definitely have the classes at the gym, and have the classes at the studio, but all my corporate classes have been from people who've come to a gym class or know me from somewhere else and asked if I could go teach at their work, and same as private classes, and there's definitely a, you want to be respectful to the places that you're working at, who. Might run their own private classes, and might not like you advertising that you do that to students, but I think having that mix of places where you can get out and about, and people can meet you and experience your teaching, and then, like, definitely have your own social media, have your own website, have your own thing going, so that you're not always relying on other people to give you work, so that you can start to make your own work. You could start to do workshops, or like intensives, or retreats, or something else, where it's a little bit more time and energy, like to get something like that going, but like I've had experiences with like those gym classes and those studio classes, where even though the class was going great, and was really busy, like it would just end one week, they'd change the schedule, you were off, and then that's all gone, so no one else is going to look after you, like they look after their own business, and so you have to look after your own business, and really try and be as independent as you can. I feel as a teacher, if you're going to have longevity and not just put all your eggs in someone else's basket,

Todd McLaughlin: 26:06

yeah, that's great advice, Joe. Excellent, thank you so much. You know, I'm really curious, your.. I want to.. I'd love to ask you some questions about your new book, which I have a link in the description. People in US and UK can just click that link and order it now. Those that go to your website in Australia can pre-order. I'm curious, you framed the aerial yoga alongside the eight limbs of yoga, which, and from my ability to peruse, I didn't get a chance to read from cover to cover yet, but I did get a chance to look, and you did an incredible job. I love the presentation that you put together. Can you tell me a little bit about how the idea formulated for you to merge your understanding of yoga sutras of Patanjali and/or the eight limb path of yoga with the aerial work?

Unknown: 26:57

Oh, yeah. Thank you so much, and thank you for your kind words about my book. It's absolutely been a labor of love, and kind of bringing together everything that I've been teaching over the years, and a lot of it is what I feel like is maybe missing from a lot of aerial yoga teacher trainings, because they're often quite short and they focus on the hammock and the poses, so there's not as much room in there for the philosophy, or even adapting, like, unless it's a specific, like, therapeutic focus with the class. There's often not a lot spoken about adapting for different bodies and different needs, and so I feel like it was some of the missing pieces. So many, I'm sure there will be a lot of aerial yoga teachers who have had people arrive in their class and they just haven't felt equipped to have options for that person or even how to structure their class so that you can teach multiple levels at once and everyone has a good experience and that also applies to the philosophy, like sometimes people can get quite caught up in complicated movements and flows and tricks, and I think that's actually when it kind of stops being yoga, like I think that you can have a challenging physical practice and still be very connected to the ethics and philosophy of yoga, and for some people, like that's what they need to get to meditation, like they need to really tie themselves out, and then they're ready for it, and like I've had times in my life where I felt like that. So I really wanted to reconnect what we are sharing in aerial classes, because I think if we like back into the philosophy yoga, because I think if we're calling it aerial yoga, like we really have to ground it in that philosophy, and like maybe otherwise it could just be called aerial fitness or aerial dance, or like I know aerial sling is like more of the circus kind of moves, like I think that we have an extra responsibility to make it feel like yoga, and that means that we're working with the mind as well as the body. The eight limbs frame. Oh, sorry, I've been talking for a

Todd McLaughlin: 29:11

while. I was just gonna say, great point. Please keep going. Thank you. I want you to talk. Thank you.

Unknown: 29:17

So, the eight limbs framework I chose because it's very familiar to a lot of yoga teachers, and it is a structure, so there's there's many ways to experience yoga philosophy, and more esoteric philosophies, and non-dual philosophies, and like all of that is yoga, but I would say the majority of yoga teachers would at least be familiar with Patanjali, and it gave me a structure to structure my book, and actually the more that I looked into yoga history, the more historical examples I found of people using ropes, especially for suspended in. Versions and as a prop to use in their yoga practice, so even though our perception of it might be that it's quite a modern thing, it's absolutely interwoven with yoga history. Interesting,

Todd McLaughlin: 30:15

that's cool. Where was one of the.. I'm just curious, where was one of the first light bulbs went off that you were doing a little bit of investigation and research that went, wait, there's a photo, or wait, I'm reading about someone using a rope or a prop of that nature to help the body. Where was one of your first discoveries? I'm just curious.

Unknown: 30:33

It was actually Dr. Kavitha Moahan's book, Traditional Aerial Yoga, which I just bought online. She spoke about the thotdle, so this isn't even a part of yoga practice. It was like a thotdle is traditionally a sari that mothers would hang, like the two ends at the top, and then the baby would sleep in the bottom part of the sari, suspended, just the way I start my aerial yoga classes, and it can be very soothing, because the baby can gently swing, it's very supportive for their spine as they're growing, and the thought will is also a ceremonial piece of cloth, so like deity is a carriage of the temple in the thottle, and it's very much a part of everyday life, especially in South India, but also in the Mysore Palace, like that's where there's a lot of those texts with the illustrations of the people hanging from the tree upside down with the rope. There's an esthetic tradition as well, translated to be bat penance. So that's definite to what I teach in my classes, because I'm not about transcending the physicality of the body by hanging upside down for a really long time. Did you say that's definitely a part?

Todd McLaughlin: 31:39

Did you say

Unknown: 31:40

bat

Todd McLaughlin: 31:41

bat pinion,

Unknown: 31:41

yeah,

Todd McLaughlin: 31:42

like hanging out like a bat, and you have to stay there as long as you can as a way of abstaining from your perceived sin. Is that, is that kind of what you're saying, like, like this?

Unknown: 31:52

I believe so. All my understanding is transcending the physical reality and kind of getting to those higher realms of consciousness.

Todd McLaughlin: 31:59

Yeah. Well, I'm so happy to hear that, Joe, because I needed to kind of understand that connection in relation to, I think, my first thought form when I saw aerial yoga. I thought, oh boy, here we go, another trend, you know what I mean? This will be in and out, just like I don't know something else, but when you relate it to the traditional aspects, and then also the concept of like that nurturing component, like, and I love the fact that you built that bridge with, say, if we're challenged with maybe neurodivergence, and or any type of anything challenged with anything, to feel the security of, like, it's almost like a womb-like experience to be snug like in a little cocoon, so there is something very comforting about that. So now that you made the relate the connection with moms letting baby swing in it, but also that it was even used as a, as like a austerity practice is really interesting, which makes perfect sense, because we could turn anything into an austerity practice if we get creative enough in a way, but which leads me to another question, or another thought, What is your, what has been your relationship to austerity practices in yoga, and how is that evolving for you as you, I'm guessing you've been at this for a long time, bring more compassion to yourself as you, as we age.

Unknown: 33:25

I think I'm more drawn to indulgence than I am to austerity.

Todd McLaughlin: 33:31

Has it helped your indulgence, and how has your indulgence evolved since your 20s to where you are today?

Unknown: 33:41

Like, I actually do think that exploring play and pleasure in practice can be really powerful, and just to scroll back to what you're saying about how soothing it can feel to be supported in the hammock, I work with a lot of people who have PTSD and also chronic pain, and they have found, like, their nervous system benefits of just being supported so powerful for them, and especially if, say, you have low energy from illness, or, like, another reason from stress. Like, there's full permission and encouragement in my classes. If you just want to be cocooned in your hammock for the whole time, take that space to rest and be, if that's what you need today. And you can say that in a mat-based class, but to pay your money and to show up and lie on your mat for an hour, not that many people do that. The fact that the hammock, yeah, yeah, the fact that the hammock kind of gives you your own space to do that, and also the ability to move in the way that feels good for you, like I feel like it is actually an option a lot more people do take, and I think if you have a lived experience of like feeling pain with movement and the associated fear that. Can come up with that. It can be really scary trying new things if you don't know you're going to have a pain flare the next day. The ability to try, well, it just gives you so much more repertoire, and you can move in so many different ways because you're supported. People are able to reconnect with movement as something that feels good in their body and is there for relaxing for their minds and the feedback loop from that is then that they do feel comfortable to try more things and maybe they have a better night's sleep that night because they're actually able to relax and let go in the class and then that helps set them up for a better day the next day there's absolutely like a feedback loop between like pain, cortisol, stress, and bad sleep, and all those things make each other worse. So, if we can introduce opportunities for like rest and pleasure, and just maybe feeling good in your body for the first time that day, like I think that's so powerful, and that's much more what I'm drawn to than an esthetic practice. Like, I think everyday life has so much stress and pressure in it that I don't want to encourage that in my classes at all. I'm more about getting people to like ease off and do a bit less.

Todd McLaughlin: 36:17

Yeah, a great point. Wonderful, I love it. I'm curious. One thing that popped in my mind is, if you were to offer a retreat where people could fly to you to practice with you, are there retreat centers that are set up with a lot of aerial hammocks that you could then rent and then facilitate? And have you done that before?

Unknown: 36:37

Yes, I did this last year at a beautiful place called Floating Leaf in Bali.

Todd McLaughlin: 36:42

Oh, nice. Yeah,

Unknown: 36:45

beautiful studio, like a traditional Balinese bamboo building, like open air. Like, the staff at the retreat center were amazing, like it's a Balinese-owned center, and like Balinese culture was very much front and center. So, as well as learning yoga from me, like local staff at the retreat center explained about a lot of the different cultural traditions, and even like the food has so much meaning in Bali. So one of the things we did was have a like a group cooking class together, and then we all ate a feast together on our first day, because I like making things. We also went to a local silversmith workshop in a silversmithing village, and it was just in like a family garden kind of studio set up, so that was really beautiful as well. And I'm absolutely excited to go back, hopefully in 2027 Though I'm just kind of putting travel plans on hold at the moment, just because there's so much happening in the world right now, I don't think anyone is in the mood to book flights, and I just want to, like, give all of that a bit of space, but yeah, I'm absolutely hoping to go back to Floating Leaf, and would totally recommend it as a venue for any other teachers. Like, I felt so supported by the staff, it was such a beautiful, positive experience.

Todd McLaughlin: 38:00

Amazing, great to hear for someone who is now has their interest piqued, and they, I think, a good place to start would be to read your book. If how important do you feel that doing a teacher training is for aerial yoga versus the experienced yoga teacher that goes into a hammock and just learns and kind of self teaches, like just kind of, you know, if you already have a little bit of movement skill and ability, and you play with a hammock, you know, you can get really creative and you can look at a couple pictures and you can, you know, read a book, and but How important or not important do you feel a training, a proper training, is for someone who's thinking about teaching aerial yoga?

Unknown: 39:30

I think for self practice I did try to write my book so that people could be their own teacher, like I did try to structure everything in a way that there was like a clear foundation, like get comfy in this pose, and then maybe you could take your hammock up higher, because sometimes I hang my hammock at knee or ankle height, so it's that's for the restorative poses, and a lot of the moves you can do down low you can also do with your hammock at hip height, and then your whole body is off the ground, or if you're hanging upside down, your head is a good amount of space off the ground, I think, just like safety wise, legality wise, and insurance wise, it really pays to do a teacher training course. I think if you are just moving yourself, then, like, I don't think you, especially if you're already a yoga teacher, I think you could learn a lot from a book and a lot from online classes, but stuff can go wrong quickly in aerial yoga, like normally yoga on the floor. If someone's going to hurt themselves, unless they fall over, generally those kind of image injuries happen gradually over time, but people can fall out of the hammock and sometimes. Times it's just from lack of focus, like there might be a move where they're holding it behind them, and then scooping themselves into it. So, I think just to cover yourself legally for those things that can happen unexpectedly in class that aren't even a result of your teaching, it's just someone missed the mark and they landed on the floor rather than in their hammock. I think it really, you know, you don't want to be in a position where someone hurts themselves in class and you don't have any legal framework, and for your own peace of mind as well. I think that that chance to ask questions and to practice teaching in a setting where, like, there's someone else who knows more than you do, who can, like, give you some feedback, can explain, you know, like, oh, this is dangerous for that reason, or the fabric should be there, like, a lot of, a lot of movements, if the fabrics in the right place, there's no way that you will fall out, but there are some other ones where there's a bit of a counterbalance action, or it's about grip strength, and when I see things shared online, I never see those kind of instructions, and I think sometimes, as a yoga teacher, it's intuitive, like you feel when you're off balance, and you can kind of feel when you need to hold tight, but for a new student in your class, they may not have that body awareness, so they're coming at it from a different starting point, and you might have never experienced that point in your own training or your own practice, because you are already coming at it with a level of body awareness and probably strength and flexibility that a newcomer to your class, you know, they're just starting from a different place, and that's when a course can be so helpful, because you're in a room with a whole lot of different people and different bodies, and also moves are just broken down in a lot more detail.

Todd McLaughlin: 42:38

Yeah, great advice. I would agree with you. I learned that one the hard way. I hung my hammock in the studio. It was high enough where you could flip upside down and wrap your legs around it and be inverted. I left the room, left the student to just try it on her own, and she fell out of it, and it was a big wake-up call of, like, whoa. Okay, this can happen. So, I think you're right to be able to learn from other people that have made the mistakes and can kind of coach you to say, well, I mean, best advice would have been, don't leave the room, don't just leave them there with this with a hammock and assume that they will be fine. So, I think that's really great advice. Have what can you share a mistake you had to learn the hard way?

Unknown: 43:26

Yeah, so

Todd McLaughlin: 43:27

yeah,

Unknown: 43:27

this was not.. I guess it was more a level of understanding. I've had people like, no one has hurt themselves in my class, thankfully, but I've had people fall out of their hammock and land on the floor, and it wasn't a brand new beginner, like it was an experienced student who wasn't focusing multiple times, so like I used to teach gym classes with Ariel Yoga, where it was like 22 people in the room, and if I had a brand new beginner, I would focus on them, and I had an assumption that people had done the pose many times before would be able to do it safely without me watching them, but I learned that that is not always the case. Like, sometimes people just aren't focused, and they, well, each time I asked the person, like, what happened, like, and they're like, I don't know, so they didn't know, it's you know, sometimes it is about like focused awareness, and now I almost have a bit of a second sense where I can just kind of tell if someone's a little bit off that day, and sometimes I actually mentally dial down what I had planned in the class, where it's just like, okay, people's brains are tired, like they don't need anything complicated, and I don't need to be trying to teach anything complicated when you know people are obviously just not quite on it that day, but yes, definitely that feeling of having to keep your eyes on everyone is much more of a thing in an aerial yoga class than a floor-based yoga class, and then learning to trust that feeling, where I'm like, oh, that person doesn't quite seem like their normal self today, like they seem a bit tired, they seem a bit unfocused, let me just keep an extra eye on them today.

Todd McLaughlin: 45:15

Yeah, great advice. So, I don't want to assume that the listener is familiar with Yama and Niyama in the eight limbs of the Yoga Sutras, but it more or less serves as like the ethical or moral framework for a successful yoga practice, and there's five yamas and five niyamas. Can you tell me, how are there which is the most difficult for you out of the 10 ya. Yama and niyamas to convey, like, for me, the maybe the Brahmacharya one, the one that revolves around talking about how we maintain our sexual integrity, or the way we work with other people in that realm, but then also maybe something like Ishwar, pranidana, dedication to the Lord. Sometimes maybe we feel like, should I talk about God? If, if I have a God realization, does that mean everybody in the room is on the same page? Vice versa, maybe I'm not, and maybe they are. Can you tell me a little bit about how you've been able to navigate teaching the yamas and niyamas to your students, and, and what you, what you're learning?

Unknown: 46:20

So, I don't really necessarily use the Sanskrit names or like talk about Yama and Niyama in class as much, like the book has very much been my forum to really unpack that a lot more, but I try and live it, so like the Diana and Diana, Diana and Diana, the meditative awareness and the focus concentration. I feel like we were just kind of talking about before, how maybe you have a sense that someone is not quite in their focused concentration for that class, and then, like, I've had the experience as well where you've really had to be focusing the Diana, the focus concentration and awareness, and then settled into just the meditative absorption, and like, suddenly it's not your brain working, it's you're just in

Todd McLaughlin: 47:12

it. Yes,

Unknown: 47:13

and I think actually having my own podcast was super helpful with this side of things, because I also hadn't necessarily vibed with this Raura Pranachana as a student, because I'm also not very religious, and Dr. Shang, Dr. Sham Raganatham has quite a different interpretation, where it's about sovereignty and it's about challenging dogma, and I really, yeah, like he explains it really well, and I definitely like drew from my conversation with him in the book, but it's kind of about Isvara sovereignty, the more dedicated to who you are, living your best life, the more that flows out into your community as well, so it's like it stops you from being isolated by your own thoughts and your own preconceptions about things. The more you can kind of strip them away, the more like expansive and connected your life becomes. So

Todd McLaughlin: 48:23

nice, yeah, that's a really good way to blend both ideas into like a cohesive understanding, you could be of spiritual leaning or you could not, and that doesn't tread on either toe. Do you think really that's a pretty good midline way of explaining either do it for devotion to someone outside of yourself or do it for your community, like, like, be a good person, just simply for the fact that it brings joy to the community, and I don't know,

Unknown: 48:57

and I guess then you, then you have the thing of, like, don't do it because you want to get credit for

Todd McLaughlin: 49:02

it,

Unknown: 49:02

like you are surrendering, like you're doing it because it's the right thing to do,

Todd McLaughlin: 49:06

right. Good point. Well, on that note, can you talk a little bit about your journey as a podcaster? You know, you have a podcast called The Flow Artist Podcast, and you've been at it for about nine years now. I'm really honored to meet another podcaster. Can you tell me a little bit about how podcasting has enriched your life, and or your yoga practice, and your yoga, your ability to communicate what you do, learn from other people, and also promote yourself.

Unknown: 49:32

Yeah, so it's actually a run idea, and he did his yoga teacher training, and I had to make boundaries at home about when we could talk about yoga stuff, because I would be like settling down in bed at night with my book, and then that's when he'd want to talk about yoga philosophy or anatomy, I need

Todd McLaughlin: 49:54

a break,

Unknown: 49:55

yeah, like this is not the time, and after he finished his teacher training course, we did have a bit more time, and he like loves podcasts, so he was motivated to like set it all up. We've expanded our range of tech gadgets over time, that's also all run purchases, but I really like talking, and I have a lot of questions. I'm a curious person, I'm I'm interested in life, I'm interested in other people, so I tend to do more of the writing questions for the interviews, and it's just been a really amazing way to connect with people who inspire us, and like, say you have a favorite author, if you're just a fan and you send them an email, like, that's nice, and it. Nice to like let them know how much you love their book, but if you have a podcast and you send them an email, sometimes they'll reply, and then you can have like a whole hour conversation with this amazing person who's been the source of so much inspiration and learning for you, or maybe you discover someone and you think they're awesome and you want more people to know about them, it's a forum for that as well, so it's like you can have a master class with, like, you can reach out to anyone, and sometimes they say yes. So I love that aspect of it, and I feel like I've got to make like real friends from the podcast, like one amazing past recurring guest, Jiver Heyman, who's the founder of Accessible Yoga, wrote my forward for my book, and just great timing. He's coming to Melbourne this coming weekend. I'm going to be assisting him on his Accessible Yoga teacher training

Todd McLaughlin: 51:33

course,

Unknown: 51:33

so he'll be hosting my online launch, and so that's a connection that, like, I would have read his books in the past, but I wouldn't have had this chance to talk to him and get to know him, and I'm super grateful for opportunities like that.

Todd McLaughlin: 51:46

That's amazing. I agree with you, that is one of the most incredible parts about doing all this. Can you talk a little bit about confidence? Because I feel like one of the things that I hear from a lot of people is just maybe I couldn't do that, because, and I think it boils down to just being confident enough to like write that email and accept that maybe they won't respond to me, and that's okay, and not even taking that to heart.

Unknown: 52:13

Well, the good thing about sending an email is like, if nothing happens, nothing happens, like it's not humiliating, like it's not like you've got up on stage and forgotten the words or something, like in the email, nothing happens, that's all I move on.

Todd McLaughlin: 52:25

Great point, great point. Well, oh, wow, Joe, I mean, I really appreciate this opportunity to meet and speak with you, and in the process of attempting to bring our conversation toward a conclusion, a cohesive conclusion, can you talk a little bit about just, or give us a little bit of insight, or or thoughts that you're having that you just like to share with us without me asking a question? Is there something that you know is on your mind? It could be a heavy thing, it could be a light thing, maybe it's just something motivational, inspirational, and no right or wrong, whatever you want to talk about, but I just would love to hear something that I didn't touch upon, that's that you've really been that you think we need to hear, we need to know about.

Unknown: 53:13

Oh, thank you so much, Todd. It's been so great to talk to you today, and I've loved your questions, I've loved the conversation. I guess this is a given Heyman inspirational quote, he probably phrased it differently, but he phrased it something like, like, yoga is an opportunity to make friends with yourself, so it's this chance that we have to get to know ourselves and to be real with ourselves, and to even take the time to know what that might be, to kind of have more clear insights about our habits, about our patterns, and I think that a lot of people are great at taking care of the people around them, and we'd never talk to the people around them in the way that we sometimes talk to ourselves. So that's the message that I'd like to share with people, like let this be a practice that helps you know yourself, like love yourself and take care of yourself, and then send that energy out, because like so much happening in the world right now, and like I think we all need to take care of ourselves, we all need to take care of the people around us, and like our world needs like a lot of love and a lot of positive energy right now, so if you can find something that helps you cultivate that within you, and then an outlet, like I think our world needs that right now.

Todd McLaughlin: 54:30

Oh, yes, I agree, that's a really well.. I know, I know, I said, in conclusion, I'm going to keep asking you questions. Do you feel what kind of shift are you noticing right now, without getting to like what are you noticing in relation to that? How are you managing your consumption of outside information in relation to the amount of information you're consuming from your direct environment?

Unknown: 55:03

I find it a lot better to not like, I don't watch a lot of videos, and I look, I don't look at a lot of images when it comes to news, but there are a couple of really super smart, super like worldly, they all seem to be women, surprisingly, not surprisingly, but like female journalists who I look to for my news, who kind of give a bit of a deeper perspective and unpack stuff a bit more, and come from different backgrounds as well, because I think that's important, so I think maybe be selective about where do. Where you're getting your news from, especially like in the AI age, like seeing is not believing, like, and like really look into the sources, and maybe as well. This is absolutely a work in progress for me, like be intentional about how much time you spend online and what you're doing there, like it's easy to get sucked in to the scroll, and it's definitely diminishing returns, both in terms of mental health and just what you could be doing with that time, because doing nothing is sometimes better for better than that. Yes, and maybe like we all need to do a bit more nothing sometimes, and just give ourselves a bit of space to decompress.

Todd McLaughlin: 56:22

Yes, Joe. Oh my gosh, thank you for that. Well, what a pleasure. I am so grateful. Your book is amazing. I recommend everybody order a copy. The link that I have benefits you the most, but obviously people can get it from all the different places, your local bookstore and online at other spots as well, but you know, thank you so much. For, I mean, I know it takes a lot of commitment and time to actually write a book, and I am inspired by you. I hope one day to focus my energy enough to be able to do the same thing. So, I mean, great job there. Kudos for being able to pull that off, and I think all the work you're doing with, like, in studio, but also online, is very motivational and inspirational. So, I really appreciate you sharing everything that you do. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much.

Unknown: 57:14

Oh, thank you so much, Todd. It's been so great to talk to you, and, like, thank you for everything that you do as well.

Todd McLaughlin: 57:18

All right, thank you. Thanks, Joe. Until next time, I appreciate it. Native Yoga Todd Cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know. If there's room for improvement, I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve, and if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native Yoga Center. You can find us at Native Yoga center.com And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends, rate it, and review, and join us next time.