Len Liang ~ East Meets West: The Fusion of Thai and Western Massage Cultures

Len Liang is a distinguished Thai massage practitioner based in Canada. With a background in hospitality and music, Len transitioned into the world of massage therapy around three years ago, studying with the ITM (International Training Massage) school and quickly establishing himself as a prominent figure in the field. His journey includes competing in various international massage competitions, where he has been recognized for his innovative approach and dedication to the craft. Len brings a unique blend of creativity and tradition to his practice, emphasizing the importance of vibrations and energy in therapeutic settings.

Follow Len here: https://www.instagram.com/waikru.massage/

Key Takeaways:

• Diverse Influence: Len Liang's transition from hospitality and music into massage therapy illustrates a multidisciplinary approach, enriching his current practice.
• International Competition Role: Engaging in global massage competitions fosters community and innovation within the therapeutic field, allowing practitioners to learn and grow beyond borders.
• Cultural Interpretations: Thai massage adapts uniquely across different cultures, integrating local customs and practices, as highlighted by Len's experiences in Japan and Thailand.
• Energy and Creativity in Massage: Len emphasizes the vital role of energy, vibrations, and creativity in massage therapy, encouraging adaptability and personalization in practice.

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Chapters

• 0:03 The Intersection of Heavy Metal and Healing in Massage Therapy
• 6:35 Journey From Hospitality to Thai Massage Practitioner
• 12:30 Competing in Massage Championships and Embracing the Unexpected
• 15:46 The Global Thai Massage Competition Experience
• 27:37 The World of Thai Massage Competitions and Judging Challenges
• 35:20 he Creative Evolution of Thai Massage and Teaching
• 45:45 Cultural Exchange and Community Building in Massage Therapy
• 51:41 Exploring Thai Massage's Therapeutic and Spiritual Dimensions

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. If you're first time listener, I'm so happy you're here. And for those of you that are regular supporters, yay. Thank you very much. Today's special guest, Len Liang, and follow him on Instagram at@waikru.massage. He is a Thai massage therapist from Canada, and I learned so much talking to Len. So get ready. What more can I say? Why give you a huge intro when you're gonna hear it? All right? Now, all right, let's begin. I'm so excited to have Len Liang, here with me today. Yeah, man, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining me. I found you via the world of massage therapy, and you are a fellow Thai massage therapist, so I'm really excited to meet other therapists and have a chance to pick your brain a little bit and find out how you got excited about it, and what sort of turns and twists you've gone down to get to the point you are now. On that note, can you tell me a little bit about how your how your day is going so far, and what you got up to last night? Oh, man, oh, you're gonna bring that up, man, possibly miscommunication, but I wasn't prepared for today, today last night. I was at one of the first of two Metallica concerts last night, and I think that is pretty cool to talk about, even because the juxtaposition of who we are as therapists, practitioners outside for the people, and who we are as individuals, and the fact that we all have personal lives and personal identities, and it could be a complete 180 turn of what people might think we are. So yeah, Metallica, that's so true. I mean, do you find that's that's interesting, that, as a say, someone that's coming to you for a time massage session, and maybe in their mind. They're thinking, Oh, he must listen to Zen spa music. And then you go, where'd you go last night? Metallica, yeah, and people believe my hair is in a bun when I'm working with people, so they look at me like a hippie last night. This was all out. So, yeah, man, well, I've never, I've never seen him live before, but I would imagine. So can you explain a little bit then what kind of feeling you get from it, and how you could relate that to the energetic world of what you experience as a body worker? Absolutely, you know, I think as as hippie as I might seem to some people, I don't like I think I'm a beautiful hippie, but not like over the top hippie, whatever that means in everybody's heads. But then I played music since I was three years old, and somewhere in the back of my head, I understand that vibrations matter now, how anybody chooses to define vibrations or energy or healing or any of that stuff. You know, you go to a concert of like, you know, heavy metal or thrash metal, or however you want to call it, because there was Pantera as well. Oh my gosh. You know, there is a vibration, and that's not just from the instruments, it's from the energy of the crowd, the people around you, and how that kind of relates to who we are in the work setting, or what people like to say in the in the healing community. You know, it's it's a form of release for a lot of people. We We are the musician, we are helping our clients find that release through Trust, which is the same thing at a concert and relaxation. So in a concert, the trust, I wasn't in it, so don't I would have loved to, but the mosh pit, for instance, right? Yeah, yeah. Anybody has. A visual of what a mosh pit is, just everybody slamming into each other, kind of going round and round in a circle. But sometimes there's punches and kick. It kicks and it's not intentional, and the community trusts itself not to purposely injure each other. So same with us in our modalities that we do for a massage, people have to trust us, and they have to let that emotion release could be physical, could be mental, could be spiritual. How we choose to find that release for that one moment in time is how I would completely relate it, and it has to do with vibrations and energy that is so cool. Lynn, what a great outlook. I mean, I guess you're right from a bodywork session and even, like a Thai massage, I've never, I thoroughly enjoy mosh pits, although I don't go in there anymore, unless it's like, like, what you said, where I feel like the energy is not one of like, you know, real death and destruction more, just like you said, that kind of harmony. But I've never thought of a Thai massage as like a mosh pit. But you're right. And then sometimes, when I look at like, say, jiu jitsu grappling and the artistry of the body movement coordination, to be able to kind of flip and pull and moving away like that. Sometimes I've seen that correlation in relation to a massage session, even though obviously they're very different. But yeah, it's cool, cool to think of it like that, and the way that two people are interacting and the energy. It's interesting because last night, I bought a last minute ticket, so I went alone, and it was the people beside me that were talking to me, and they were all alone as well. And so again, that that this is what we're doing right now, is like that whole community building that, you know, the guy beside me, he said, Oh, you know, you probably came alone. You just don't want to talk to anybody. You just want to listen to the concert. I said, Well, no, I mean, we are here together, sharing the same experience. When it comes to like, Okay, let's get away from heavy metal here right now. But when it comes to massage, that the combination of peoples, and it's not always perfect combination of people, ideals, soul, spirits, energy, everything, I mean, it all comes together. And you know, it's how we are open to each other in that moment, in that time, that really does the healing Great point. So if you started playing music when you were three, what was the trajectory to then, at some point, land in the world of bodywork and healing, I think, and we'll lead into this as well. When I was younger, I used to do a lot of competitions for music. And one of the things my mother, she's 90, by the way, just turned 91. Of the things my mother always told me was that I always went to these competitions saying, Oh, what am I going to bring home today, which is absolutely insane, through the other kind of works that I did, through the other kind of competition that I've done, we can talk about that afterwards as well. It was mainly hospitality for 20 years. So I've been working in restaurants, corporate mom and pop shops, helping find dining, restaurants, clubs, nightclub, General, managing all that stuff and the that experience, and everything that I was, everything else that I've done in my life, kind of led me to it. It was always helping people. And Thai massage came to me because one of my clients, when I was working in a cheese shop again, a whole other world, she ended up doing this to to help her sister who was having cancer, and she wanted to give her sister relief. So she ended up leaving her industry, whatever it may be, I'm not going to go into those details, and finding herself pretty much in Thailand, and I think you are, ITM as well, yes. So she ended up being in that community, finishing her teacher's certification, and coming back to Toronto and opening up her spa, which is the where I work right now. Wow. But she told me, ever since, I think it was like 20, oh, my god, 2010 2011 Yeah. She always said to me at the cheese shops, like, you need to do this. This is you. And I've already promised myself to stay within the hospitality industry for a while, to have a friend. But when lockdown came about, when the whole world kind of just stopped, a little bit paused, didn't stop. When we paused, that's when I just said, You know what, let's give this a try. And I started, and, you know, haven't really looked back right now. So it's been five years. That's incredible. Did you end up getting licensed or certified in Canada as a massage therapist? Yeah. So it's a little bit weird here in Ontario. I don't know if. And I seem to have this this look to me before the competition starts, and it's really pure just focus and being there in the moment and not really paying attention to anything else. I didn't finish watching the interview with Jeppe, so I don't really know what he talked about, but in the competition and just even clinical everyday practitioner life, we are supposed to connect with our client and the person who's receiving and nothing else should really be affecting us or disturbing us. And in a competition sake, that is pretty much what you have to do. So, you know, my focus was already on my client. My focus was just meditation just before we started. But there's always, even today, there's always a sense of, for lack of a better words, like nervousness. But it's not nerves, it's I uh, it's nerves if you are trying to do a program that you've rehearsed, if it's not something that you rehearsed, and you go with the flow, or even if you've rehearsed some things, but you still go with the flow of the body that you're working on, because you might not know who it is that is that opening up moment to your client and letting your client feel your your honesty and your truth, right. And then it starts from there, so nervous, not really nervous, I like also be in the moment that's great insight. Do how do you answer folks that when you bring this concept up about, hey, guess what? Guys, I'm flying over to Japan to the world massage championship. And people, you know, when I first heard about it, my head did a 360 because I was kind of like, I was like, what? And, um, so how do what is? What is the way that you try to cross that bridge with folks, to get them to understand the benefits of putting yourself into that environment where maybe a lot of people would say, how can you possibly compete and judge a massage? You know, I'm just curious what your how you, how you go about explaining, yeah, from a from a competitor point of view, traveling all over the world to compete, people think I have a lot of money. My God, I do not. When you travel to do can get very expensive, yeah, depending on the country that you're going to. Airfare, accommodations, food is taxing on the body, potentially, because of jet lag is taxing on the mind, because maybe it's a new city you've never been to, usually it is, and you have to try to figure out how to get from point A to point B and back and back and back, like it's there's a lot of things that go into it. Accommodations, just huge. I'm actually planning this European part of this year right now, and it's, it's gotten me ballistic right now. But there are a lot of people, I would say, the majority of therapists and practitioners. They don't believe that a competition is the right way to go. I understand. I'm a Virgo. I understand all points of view, but I think one of the things that Jeppe probably would have talked about was the building of community, and I do firmly believe that there are multiple organizations out there that are doing competitions and for whatever the purpose is, in their mind, it is true, it is building community of people. It is an opportunity to meet others. If you travel around the world, you can meet people from all over the world. You get to see the different styles in different country. But also you get to learn. And I think learning is probably the biggest thing, you know, man, if so I competed in Thailand, yeah. And, you know, Canadian mentality of what Thai massage is like compared to Thailand, Thai competition mindset is, like, is like, it's a world of a difference, wow. Can you explain that a little bit? Can you explain the differences? Yeah. Uh, okay. Well, let's talk about Japan. Because Japan, I think, is one of the biggest outside of, I feel outside of, outside of Thailand. Thai massage is probably the biggest craze in Japan, and in their companies, they have over 3000 people. What we will competing? Yeah, 3000 contestants first round. Like, it's it's ridiculous. They have to get a stadium to do this. 3000 people sign up to compete in Japan. Whoa, finals. How do you even. Get to, oh my god, it's insane. Well, where did, how far in did you make that one? Hold on. All right, mine was the World Final. So it was the champions of each country that came together. So I understand, I understand, yeah, but in the open competitions, like everybody wants to do it, wow, it's mind boggling. Like the whole world out there that I don't even need I do want to go actually, after talking to hepe, I was like, Man, I want to get involved. He's like, Well, you got one in Las Vegas coming up in June, just and he's like, Yeah, we're talking about that too. Yeah, that's pretty cool. But so in Japan, you know, you think about Thai massage, which you which you've learned in Thailand, and which you have brought to the US. And who knows what your style is like. I don't know your personal style, but your culture and the people, the way you interact with your client, will determine how that blends into American style. In Japan, you bring Thai massage to Japanese culture, and they're, you know, in religion as well. We're not going to go too much into religion, but they have a similar religion and thought process where, you know the gracefulness of Japanese people and the flow of Japanese people, you know the politeness of it, like it's all embedded into their style of Thai massage, the way I feel. Yeah. And when you come to North America, it's different. Yeah, you go to Switzerland was different. Even within Thailand was different. I think, well, let's say I don't know what the mentality of what Thai massage was like back when you first started, but you have a lot of tourists and people going on YouTube, and they have videos of these smaller women just bending people in different into pretzels and offering that as much pain as possible. That's, I don't know if that's your style. Maybe I don't know. I'm not gonna I know. I've had to tailor it big time. And after coming back from Thailand, I realized, whoa, I gotta really get creative here with the way that I'll translate it into this, what, what people expect here and can handle for sure. And so there's even here in North America, like there's people who believe in thy massage must be painful for it to be effective. And that's, I mean, good pain is good pain. Bad pain is not good pain. So, you know, let's, let's try to, this is why I only do Thai massage. Let's try to bring it back to what the purpose of Thai massage is. And, you know, I try to kind of represent it as the best that I can in that respect as well, yes, but yeah, the different, the different styles, like even, well, I can't speak of Denmark, because that was the world finals as well. So you have people from all over the world, but yeah, there's, you know, competition sake. Let's just say the Americans, you guys are all in competition mode. It is like full blown, like, train, train, train, win, win, win. And it's unbelievable the kind of things that could come with that mentality, like creativity, just it's crazy. What about the downsides, though, from your perspective, and we can handle it. I want to hear that, because I feel like I learned from seeing hearing from outside perspective. What? Okay, cool, creativity might be great. What are you seeing is like, maybe the say downside, because there's always no you can say downside, all right, and I'll explain it as this. It has to do with expectations. As a competitor, when you go you know, are you expecting to win? Are you expecting to meet people? Are you expecting to learn? Are you expecting like, yeah, what is your purpose of going to a competition? Yeah, if you go with a if you go to a competition without the mindset of, I would like to win at least, then are you really trying hard enough, or just kind of fluffing around, just being in the atmosphere, which is fine. Are you going with the mentality that you must win and if you don't win, then what? How does your mind comprehend that as well? Right? We can speak of the egocentric style. We can speak of a spiritual style. We can speak of so many different things. So I think that one word is expectation, and that really is defined by yourself, the the competitor themselves, not by anything else. Excellent answer. Great. Great answer. I love that insight. Well, can you talk a little bit more? Though, I've never been to Japan. I really want to go. I hear it's absolutely amazing. Can you tell me a little bit about, a little more about your Japanese experience? The Japanese experience was, well, I've been to Japan twice, and Japan as a country, the people, the food, everything, excellent. There's nothing bad I could possibly say about that. Yeah, the beauty of there was one competition there that was Japanese only, and it was meant to be Japanese style. So only Japanese kind of competed in that one. And there was one when I was watching everybody perform and do their thing. There was one girl that I went back to afterwards, and through Google Translate, I told her that her flow was beautiful. Her flow reminded me of a blossom falling off of a tree down to the ground, resting on the ground. Wow. And like it was, it was beautiful. And she didn't win anything, but I've kept in touch with her, and hopefully I, what I said, made an impression on her, because she did win subsequent years, and she's doing really well for herself right now. So, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. So the kind of flow, and the kind of, again, lack of better word costume, or the way they dress, you know, they were wearing their kimono, kimonos. They were wearing a whole bunch of stuff that was cultural to Japan, and applying Thai massage to that, and applying Japanese culture to Thai massage. It was graceful, it was beautiful, it was elegant, it was respectful, it was precise. Like, that's the Japanese mindset. There's no room for error, right? And then some people want, needed to do a little bit more kind of fancier stuff, so they bring tools, and it was more of a dance for them more of a real performance, not necessarily my style, but it was still beautiful in that regard. So that's, that's the Japanese way, man, they like a lot of stretching as well. So amazing, amazing, beautiful. And it's huge in in in Japan, like in relation to, how does Thai massage and shiatsu compare in relation? No, yeah, I can't tell you, because I've never studied shiatsu. Many people say that? Well, I won't say many, because you're going to ask, who's the many people you and I are, like, very few that are, like, geeking, geeking out on, like, all the details of, well, it's precision, right? It's, I definitely don't want to misrepresent what either are, of course, but I have heard that it is very similar, but you know it, right? Same, same, but different. Like it? Yes, yes, yes. So even when you speak about, like Chinese medicine and stuff. I have a student of mine that does that, have two students minded to do it, and they were saying that it's very similar. And you know, it has to be, because we're all it doesn't have to be, but we're all Asian, right? I'm Asian, if you didn't know. And yeah, there's, there's influence from all over the place, all of Asia. And if you were to say that Thai massage is the culmination of all of those, like acupressure, stretching, you know, all that massage like, then, yeah, maybe Thailand is where I can say the best. I can't, I can't say that, where I find the most influence. Nice, yeah. Well said. So then you were able to take part in Thai massage competition in Thailand. How nerve wracking is that? That was one of my most proudest moments, one of probably my most nervous moments as well for competition, because for me as on the competitor side of my of my brain, how wonderful would it be to reach the podium as a foreigner in Thai massage in Thailand against Thai people? And I was happy enough for the traditional Thai category, I got, I got third place. Wow, oh my god. How many people signed up for that? How many people at their preliminaries? Okay, so I'll, I'll say this much as well. In my category, I think there were maybe about like nine or 10 people somewhere around there, cool. But majority of everybody in my category, who, who competed, competed in six categories, like you guys are nuts, like they didn't have any breaks. One competition, finish. Change, reset, up, compete. Change, reset, compete six times, back to back to back to back to back. I think these guys are crazy. I only did two competitions, two categories rather. The other one I did was Asian freestyle or Eastern freestyle. And so man like I wonder though, if they would have just focused and honed in on maybe even. Three, maybe I would be off the podium. But this is all subjective as well, right? Because the judges So, yeah, yeah, how do you I hear you, what, uh, in terms of judging, have you ever do you? I mean, hip is incredible. I mean, he, you can just tell, yeah, he's a character, too, and so to come up with this, and then to design the judging criteria. And did any of these Thai massage competitions in Thailand happen before he pick got this started? Wasn't he kind of like the Pioneer here, or is there somebody before him that was getting this going, and then he I, man, I feel like I'm stepping on broken glass when I talk about we should be careful. Yeah, yeah. Quite honestly, because there are multiple organizations out there, okay, and I don't know who started it all. I don't know how long either they've been in planning or preparation, but there are so many out there that, you know, I think going to Denmark would be the eighth year right for the IMA. The one in, the one that I took part in in Shangri was with the universal massage championship, and they're under the umbrella of the world massage Federation. I think they're based in Greece. And then there are, you know, the world, world massage Association, so the World Association of NOAA Titan spa, based in Switzerland. And there's, like, there's based in Japan, there's based in Canada, there's in the US. You know, you're the AMC, the American Massage championship, and you guys do state championships. So like, how long has that been going on for? Like, I don't even know the history behind that, because I know the massage festival has been going on for a very long time. So, you know, I think the beauty of the competitions in the organizers is refining what the judges are looking at, rather than just saying, Does this appeal to you? Does that appeal to you? Who do you think is better? You know, categorizing what they are to judge upon makes it a lot more clinical, clinical, that's not the right word, but more focused, yeah, into who kind of, quote, unquote, deserves to win and who doesn't? But yeah, I think judges have a tough choice. Man. Judges have they got a it's a tough job. I describe it to people like ballroom dancing competitions or even figure skating ballroom dancing, because in couples ballroom dancing, they're all competing at the same time. They're all dancing on the same floor, so the judges have to just watch, but you can't, if you're worth if you're watching someone on this end, you can't see the other person on that end. It's the same with massage. So where we are static and the judges are walking around. You know, how are they going to catch your whole performance, or your whole demonstration? They can't. It's impossible. So, you know, it's a tough job. It's a it's a really tough job. I was under the impression that some of the judging is actually the receiver, the they go on the receiving end. Is that true, or am I wrong? It's more judge in Japan, in the world finals, all the judges had a chance to be a receiver. That was for the World Association for ima, the judges were in the grand finals as receivers. So the grand final, I don't know if did he? Did he talk about that or Well, I mean, you're blowing my mind, Lynn, because I, first of all, I didn't know there was multiple organizations doing this. I'm learning that now. I didn't even know the United States had competitions in each state. That's new news to me. Yeah, I, I didn't talk about this afterwards, when we're not recording. Oh, gosh, what the the behind the scenes? Politics, I can only No, no, not politics. I'll be just telling you what is available. Like, Utah is coming up right now as well. Okay, like, there's, there's, you guys have them all over the place. It's, it's crazy, dude, this Florida too. How do you not know? I don't know. I mean, that's why I'm so glad I'm talking to you, and why that's why I appreciate podcasting, because I get to get in the loop now I've been circulating outside this loop. So how has your practice of massage improved and or changed based off of your experience that you have gone through in these multiple competitions. Just before I answer that, going one question back, the judge the grand finals for the IMA World Finals is the gold medal winner from each category and. Uh against each other. And then there are the body models for that round. The final, final, grand final round, there will be judges as the body models, and they are allowed to award points. So that's got it. Just connect what you were talking about. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'm trying to figure all the details out. Yeah. Oh, you need uh Episode Two with uh, Jeppe. I know. I know. I know. Man, I've been watching the videos and and since I started following on Instagram and seeing where he's at in all these different locations, all the different competitions happening. I mean, personally, just watching the videos from the competition has given me so many new ideas, yeah, and and technique and stuff I never even dreamed of. Like I saw one the other day where the woman was doing a Thai massage on the person she had, like a an or like a, like an or a canoe or something that was in Hong Kong, and she's pressing in on the erector spinae while she's pulling and so, like, and I it was just incredible to watch. And though, and like you said, the elegance of the choreography is just next level. You're like, wow. So I this is here's what it kind of all ties into the question that you were asking for. Because how has it changed me? And that is the exciting part for me, because my brain, I need, I need, I need to work. My brain is working like overdrive faster than my body or my mouth can speak, my body can move. And one of the things that kind of draws me to time massage more so than anything else is the ability to create and the fact that I don't I'm not opposed to it, so people want to hate on me for this. I love working on the floor. I feel like a child on the floor. I feel like I'm playing in sand or gardening or whatever as an adult, and I feel like the creativity that I can do with that surface area, with that much space, is just immeasurable. When we work on people, we know that we have to modify techniques that we do. And you know from all the time massage training that you've done and for as long as you've been doing, you know you have to modify for someone's physical size, their flexibility, range of motion, their age, everything. And that, to me, is the beauty of competing, because it forces you to create. And you know, it's for me, it's an extension what I've do every day. So it's not, it's not like something I need to over prepare for. It's just, you know, finding that point that you want to work on. And how many ways can you do it? And maybe someone has done it before, maybe someone hasn't, maybe requires a tool like an or, or maybe it doesn't like that is what competition breeds in my soul. Is that that that innate nature of mind to to do something different and to create? Yeah, wow. Well, currently, what is your schedule look like? I would imagine that you're sought after because you're so passionate and you're you're exposing yourself to learning like this and being creative. So I would imagine you potentially could be as busy as doing six to eight sessions a day, if you physically could handle it, or would even want to handle that. So what do you? How do you, how do you structure your kind of taking care of your body and and your work life and your the workload? And can you explain a little bit about, maybe even also like, what competing has done to your professional life in relation to how busy you can be, if you wanted to be sure, I think I'm in a really weird place. This is going to sound kind of well, it's kind of sad to me, because I have a hard time defining who I am. I've I've I've only been doing this professionally for just under three years. And you know, my my knowledge of the people in the industry or all around the world is very little compared to someone like you. And even then, I find that my family of massage extends outside more so outside of Canada, more so than within Canada, which is weird in itself. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I have a lot to offer people, but I also I feel like I'm just another guy, right? Like there's no there's nothing really special about what I do. It maybe. Mindset, which is special, and if people can feed from that, that is, that is what I would like people to to feed, to eat, right, like, but how do you, how do you teach people to be passionate? How do you, yeah, how do you teach people to want to you know, my my direction of wanting to be as traditional Thai massage as possible, but still be part of the family of innovation and evolution. It's I find that a little tough, right? That's a great point. So if I can try to get that in my head the way that I think I understood it so like, if you if you did a little bit more of a toned down, kind of simple, repetitive routine over and over, without the creativity, you think that maybe that might be more of an in demand way of approach, versus you're wanting to be so creative that sometimes people maybe aren't ready for the creativity. Does that? Did that sound right? Sure. So my my mission. When I teach ITM levels one and two. I teach The Book, yeah, after the classes and even during the class once in a while, oh my goodness, if, if it was watching this, I'm going by the book. I go by the book too. I mean, it's way, it's way easier to go by the book when you have a brand new crew, because somebody goes, well, what can I do over here? And they're like, Well, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this. And they're just like, going, Whoa. I just wanted to know. What I wanted to bring up is the modification for the again, creativity. You can be over creative, but modification is the key. And when we're teaching if our the student has less flexibility or has less mobility or has a problem with their elbow or their knee, you know, then we have to teach the modifications. So we do teach the book, but we also teach modifications to it. And that is the source of the creativity. That is the source of whether or not you know your students, you know other students will look at it and say, oh, I want to try that too. Some students will be like, Oh, whatever. That's just for them. But it's the students that say, like, Oh, let me try that, or let me try what you are doing. And that is what, that is the breeding ground for that creativity, right? That is a breeding ground for, let's try something different. That is what I consider beyond the books. You know, I'm so glad you're bringing that up, Lynn, because are you familiar with style of yoga called Ashtanga Yoga? I've heard of it. I don't, I don't if, if I stood up and you saw my belly, you'd know that I don't do yoga. But I've heard of it. I don't know what it is, though. Long story short, there's a routine of movement that is done exactly the same way every day. And there's a first series, second series, and then a few extremely advanced folk get up in the third and fourth. And it's taught, if people are teaching it the way that it had been held down for a long time in India, it had to be, it had to be exactly like this, right? Yeah. And so then, you know, somebody's able to do this really deep back bend, and then the next person comes in and they're not able to do the really deep back bend, so that person that wasn't able isn't allowed to go into any of the other poses until they're able to do that really, really deep back bend, which forces people to hurt themselves. I mean, long story short. So in my in my experience of teaching it over the years, I've just had to modify, modify, modify, modify, and from like that old school tradition side, no, no, no, you don't let them do that. You know, it's got to be like this. And so I can relate. It's funny, because ever since I left after studying in my second trip in Thailand, I've just kind of been just working and just doing it and not really worrying about that's one thing I loved about Thai massage, is that I didn't have anyone breathing down my neck kind of saying, No, Todd, you have to do it like this. So I love that I'm even hearing from you that there is this sort of criteria now and again. I love ITM so I'm not I understand what you're saying. Like, no, I do it by the book. I But it's interesting that there, there is that, and you kind of need to have that if you're continuing a lineage, or you're continuing a structure system. So I see the value in it and I understand it. But I and I also really understand what you're saying too about we got to be very adaptable in the moment exactly to what's needed according to what the client in front of me is requiring. You know, the evolution of ourselves as students and learners to become teachers is also important. You know, I love teaching levels one and two. Yeah, and I'm, I'm actually very sure that you do as well. I can kind of see your your passion here I do because it is Foundation, right? Everything that we do in terms of modification comes from foundation. So when you're talking, even when you're talking about the yoga Ashtanga, like that, foundation is what holds us together. When I first started learning, like I said, my flexibility is not that great, but I look back every time I teach one and two, I find myself being more able to do the things that I wasn't able to do before. So it's not a matter of modifying and keep the modification. It's modifying. And now let's go backwards, see if we can do the original move forward again and then go backward again, you know. So it's an evolution, not of our mind, but it's an evolution of our body, that we can kind of connect the Lin, like you said, the lineage and the history and the the the art, the culture, the traditional Thai massage. I am so stoked to meet Elaine. This is so cool. You know, before, before we did this interview, my wife is awesome and funny. And I said to her, I said, Yeah, I'm getting ready to interview this, this man, Len, who's up in Canada. And she said, Oh, are you sure that he's going to want to talk to you be an American? And I kind of cracked up. Like, there's this like feeling just in terms of, like, I'm sure people are kind of like, going like, whoa. How does Canada feel about the States right now, and how and what is this going to mean? And I've had people kind of say, like all these, we have a ton of Canadians that live here in Florida, and I've heard people come in and say, oh, man, they're selling their condos, and they're not coming back because they're so, you know, riled up about this and that and the other can you just, from your perspective, and you were, what are your thoughts there on that is, There's no way I'm just, I just got to guess, yeah, I love Canadians. There's no way that all the Canadians think that all Americans are just kind of kind of wild and crazy or, or are we, I don't know, like, well, Florida, all right, all right. Fair enough. That's good. It's good, just like anything else that we do in life, when we have a when there's a worldwide community of something, politics and borders, they are erased. Let's be honest right now we speak about Americans and Canadians as a whole other that's all understood when it comes to us, as you know, for myself, at least the Thai massage or massage practitioner community, or that wellness community, you know, I, I was happy to have gone down to North Carolina last year before the hurricane swept through Asheville to do the Thai massage Summit. I don't know if you're aware of that, either. No, you're again. No, you're educating me. You're educating me. I don't know. Thank you. I'm glad I I'm going to stay in touch with you, and I'm just going to keep asking you, like, what do I need to know? Hey, man, you know what? We'll talk about this. Well, I'll give you all those details of things to look at, all right, when we finish, and then, yeah, obviously you can, you can post it to other people. You can put links and stuff. Thank you. What I was getting at for there was that there was this community of of practitioners who come together once a year, and it's growing, again, building community, and that growth allows for anybody from around the world, really, to join in. And I was, yeah, I was, I was an outsider. I was, like, the only Canadian there, and that's okay, because we are all here for that one purpose, and because, you know, majority of everybody else is American, you know, you get people from the East Coast and the West Coast, and we're all sharing ideas, we're all sharing technique, and we're building community. We're building this network of people that we can always turn to for support. And, well, okay, now we're gonna get a little political Jeopardy. Was telling you about Las Vegas, and that is the location this year for the American National Finals. So AMC for the American Massage championship. I was there last year. Also in North Carolina, they were, like, about a month apart, and it was, it was crazy, because, again, you still have people from all around the world coming to compete. So it's not just Americans. This year I would I was supposed to go. I'm still on the fence of going or not, because again, now this the politics. Part of it. I just, I don't want to risk anything. I don't know what you guys have heard. So I don't, I don't again, Len, you're I'm learning what, what? What do you mean risking? What do you mean risking? I Are we not being let in or something that I did, whatever? I have a little fear of that, and if there's a chance of it, I don't want to take any chances. I understood good. But I'm disappointed, because I want to go support the organizer, who's who's organized the event. I think it's her first and second time owning it. I'll link you to her afterwards as well. And also, I have two friends of mine who are being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Wow, wow. Did you know The Hall of Fame? No, you didn't. No, I do. I knew about Metallica, at least. I really wanted to be there to support them. One is from Boston, and the other one is from San Francisco. Both great in their own right. And, you know, I think Las Vegas is a great I think it's a great location for something like this, because everything I've never been to Vegas either. So I haven't either everything never been anything that happens in Vegas can really get blown a little the doors can be blown a little bit more wide open. So if people are aware of massage competitions, maybe Las Vegas is that place, at least within the US community, to kind of break down those barriers and and the mentality of the negatives of what a competition is and really bring about the the openness and the positives of what a competition can be for the individual if they choose to intention. We all know that. So, yeah, it's so I don't I don't know if I'm going to go to the US, but understood to head over to Paris in a couple, oh, my God, about a month, Istanbul, Copenhagen, and then another one in Canada, and then maybe go down to the US. But it's a lot, man, it's Wow. I just didn't, I mean, oh man, I'm so grateful that Rihanna connected me with you. I've really excited to hear all this, and I just appreciate you being so open and honest. I love your enthusiasm. I can't even believe you've been like, like you said, three years, like you've done all that within a three year window, like your learn time massage and then going internationally to learn and study in all these different countries, because that's what this is ultimately like. I know I said, I know I can, you know, you like to compete, but you're learning so much. And you know, winning, winning is one thing. I think the the winners, let's focus on that the real winners are the people we work on, right? Because the more education I get, the more creative I get, the more I'm able to modify myself to the client's needs, right, and how I'm able to apply new technique to it. So they're the winners. We get a little trophy, we get a medal. We get, you know, we can, we can post it online, we can take photos and stuff. But, man, we are. We're the conduit just for people's health, right? Yes, yes, we are. You know, you talk about how, how short of a time during lockdown, which was about two years here in Canada, all I was doing was just practicing levels one and two. So by the time I got to be able to actually put this into practice in the real world, you know, my love for it really, I wanted, I wanted to do Swedish massage way back in the day, back in early 2000s but I just didn't want to touch naked bodies, right? I didn't want to do it. It just it kind of turned me off. Thai massage. Clothes on. Bring it on. I know it really my love was already there, but the trajectory was spiked, because I was able to be creative in a in a modality that allows for creativity and fun. It's just, I think it's fun. I think being able to help people get that release we're talking about in the beginning of the interview. I think it's fun. You know, there was a client of mine that I wrote in the notes before she came back the next time, just in case she didn't come with me, I said, make sure there's a full box of tissues ready for her, because she used more than half the box in her first session with me. Of just crying, wow, like I was like, I'm so happy to be able to be able to. Facilitate that for someone. Yeah, and I'm so happy that they trusted me enough to keep crying while I still continue doing what I was doing. Yeah, yes. You know, like, I don't think there's any bigger joy in terms of helping people than that, because I wanted to be a psychologist too once in my life, too many things, I'm sure, I'm sure you are working as a psychologist as well, because you hear, you hear everything when you're when you're working, you know, and sometimes, I mean, it's one thing I always appreciated about the ITM method of no music, or try to keep the music element out and try to encourage the client not to go into a big, lengthy conversation, and just let the silence of the moment to be able to feel what's happening and have enough meditative awareness to kind of process it. So I hear you. It's one last question, Len before, before we go. That was actually episode two. Yeah, exactly. I know. I like to try to keep them around the hour marks, that when people see the length of the conversation, they don't go, how am I going to do this? Man, I got, I got so much going on. You know, actually you did. You did answer my question. Because my final question is, was going to be is, can you tell me an example of recently that what you experienced working on someone in relation to the energetic component, but I feel like you just did do that, and the fact that you had an experience with someone where they felt comfortable enough with you to release emotion and and that is powerful. So I guess I'd come up with one more last question before we go. Is there any final tidbit of information and or final last words before our second episode that you'd like to share with us as we sign off? Yeah, I think you know, just because you were talking about that, that emotional side for the client, my my mode of of treatment usually gravitates no matter what, gravitates to therapeutic. Because I feel like here in the North American space, you know, people are working in front of computers, you know, not exercise and doing all that stuff. I feel like therapy is more important, but I'll bring it back to that spiritual part where I was I only teach small classes, like no, no more than a six people. And I always go around, and we always do ask, you know, what's your name, I always ask like, why are you here? Why do you want to take this? Why do you want to learn? And usually, people want to take it to develop a different modality from something they've already done. Maybe just for funsies. Maybe they want to do a career. There was one class that surprised the hell out of me, and majority of them were all out of towners. They all came and they said the same thing, and it was spirituality. I'm like, Whoa. Okay, I've taught many classes, well, not that many. I've taught classes, and all based on technique, based on this movement. This is the first class that everybody unanimously said spiritual. So then I bring that to you as a, as a, as something to think about, like, how would you teach ITM in a spiritual sense? Is it actually? Like, yeah, we have to sit down and do the mantra. Is it we come together and do the mantra at the end of class, beginning in class. Is it the exercise that we do? Is the meditation, or is it something that you continue teaching the way you're teaching, but you relate it back to something that they need in their lives to ground themselves and to to bring them to another level of awareness. That's my question to you, how would you approach that, as as a closing you don't have to answer that, but how would you approach that, rather than a technical side, textbook side? Yeah, right, yes, I'm gonna, I'll answer it the next time we get together. I'm gonna have to think on that, because that's a great question. Episode Two, wait for it, it's gonna come. It is my friend. Well, man, thank you. Lynn, I really and I wish you the best. Thank you, cool. It's a wild ride right now. So yes, let's keep riding it. Thank you. Todd, thank you. Lynn native yoga Todd. 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