Mark Kan ~ Creating New Traditions: Yoga for Maturity and Inner Peace

Mark Kan is an accomplished yoga teacher and former graphic designer known for his unique approach to yoga instruction. Originally from Liverpool, UK, he studied fine art before transitioning into a successful career in graphic design. Mark discovered yoga in London and has since become a significant figure in the yoga community, with a particular connection to Dharma Mitra’s teachings. He authored "The Yoga Tutor," a comprehensive yoga training manual available in several languages. Mark currently resides in Milan, Italy, where he continues to teach yoga, blending his artistic instincts with his spiritual practice.

Follow Mark on IG: @markkanyoga

Key Takeaways:

• Mark’s transition from art and graphic design to yoga teaching highlights the creative parallels between art and yoga.
• The influence of spiritual mentor Dharma Mitra in shaping Mark's approach to life and yoga practice.
• The evolution and sustainability of a yoga practice as one matures, emphasizing mindfulness and gratitude.
• Mark’s development of a new platform tailored for older adults, encouraging yoga accessibility beyond physical limitations.
• The deep spiritual elements within the yoga practice and the interplay between science, spirituality, and consciousness.

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Chapters

• 0:04 Mark Kan's Journey from Fine Art to Yoga Creativity
• 8:07 Mark Kan's Journey from Yoga Novice to Enthusiast
• 14:25 Finding Faith and Healing Through Spiritual Teachings
• 20:08 The Spiritual and Artistic Allure of Italian Churches
• 25:30 Finding Authenticity and Flow in Yoga Teaching
• 36:03 Embracing Aging and Evolution in Yoga Practice
• 43:26 Exploring Consciousness and Energy Through Joe Dispenza's Work
• 52:05 Embracing Yoga for Mature Audiences and Gentle Practices
• 1:00:26 mbracing Gratitude and Presence in Yoga Practice

Transcript

0:32

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, bodywork and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, my name is Todd McLaughlin. Today I bring my special guest to you, Mark Kan and visit him on his Instagram. Handle@markkanyoga. I have that in the description, easy to find. Click it, follow him. And you know what a great opportunity. Thank you so much, Pam and Andrew for introducing me to Mark, what a lovely conversation I was able to have with him here, and he sheds a lot of light on his journey through yoga, into yoga and and how his practice and his experience teaching has evolved. So I really enjoyed meeting Mark, and I'm so excited for you to be here now to have a chance to listen and hear and learn from him. All right, let's go ahead and begin. Really grateful to have this opportunity to both meet and speak with Mark Kan, Mark, thank you for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this chance to meet and speak with you. How are you feeling? I'm great. It's a real pleasure to to meet you, Todd, and thanks so much for inviting me onto your podcast. I've listened to some of your interviews, and, you know, only with people that I actually know or know of on, you know, on the yoga team, and I really enjoyed them, so it's a real pleasure to to be here. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Can you tell me where you're located right now? I'm actually in Milan at the moment, so I'm largely based here. I do some classes outside of the city as well, but mostly, mostly based here. And are you originally from the UK? Yeah, I'm, I'm from, I'm actually from Liverpool in the UK. I don't know whether you know that city, but I from there. I moved down to London for education and stayed there for forever. Nice. Found yoga in London as well. So that's that's kind of where I started to practice yoga many, many years ago. So what is your educational background? My educational background is in, is in the arts. So I studied Fine Art at art school, and that led into more of a career in graphic design, in the end, to make a living, which is what I continue to do, and still do you know I do all of my promotional work for my yoga is is done by myself. So any any advertising or any posts I need to do for social media, I do those. So I still enjoy doing this. I still enjoy, you know, working with graphic design. And I also wrote a book some years ago, and I was responsible for the layout of the of the actual book as well. So I'm still still involved in it at a distance, but I enjoy it still wonderful. Can you tell me what the title of the book is? It's called the yoga tutor. It's part of a series of books which were published back in, I think it was 2013 and this one was specifically for yoga. I think there was another one for Pilates, and I can't remember what else, but they asked me to to create this book which, you know, which is, was a real pleasure and a real honor, you know, at that stage in my, in my yoga career, let's say, so, yeah, did you say use it for teacher trainings as well? You know, if I do teacher trainings, then I, I recommend the book, because it's, it's basically a teacher's training manual. It has all of the, all of the, all of the content that you is required to, at least. Satisfy a 200 hour certification. So nice. Did you say it was called Yoga for tutor, T, U, T, O R, the yogurt tutor, the yoga tutor? Yeah. Nice, yeah. So it's available in many languages, even in in Japanese, which I'm very proud of because I love the typography. It looks really cool. I agree. I agree that would be so cool to write, publish a book and then have be able to see it written in multiple language. Was it a large publisher? Is that how that eventuated, where the publishing company is broad enough. It's an international publisher, because it was also, and still is published in the US. And it happened around the time when I was traveling to New York a lot. So Dharma Mitra Sri Dhama very kindly wrote the forward for the book. So he, you know, when you open the book up, there's a beautiful forward from him, which I'm very proud of. And a lot of the knowledge that's in the book is, you know, directly comes from his teachings. Wonderful, very nice. What? What? What type of connection do you feel yoga and fine art has? Well, this is a nice question, because when I stopped, finally stopped making art and stopped working as a graphic designer, I kind of reached a point where I'd lost my passion for that kind of creativity, that creative route and and I felt like yoga gave me the opportunity to find another way of expressing myself in A creative way, with sequencing. So I feel, I feel like when I'm putting a class together, that's the that's the creative side of me, that's the artistic side of me still being expressed. So I never feel like I left it behind altogether. And more recently, over the past couple of years, I started to take yoga poses, like isolated yoga pose that I shot of myself, and then I'd create, create some moving graphics, almost kaleidoscopic graphics, which I posted on on my Instagram page, which are available for people to See. But basically it's just one position, which I've using some software and playing with color as well being able to create these animations, which I feel really quite proud of, because it's, you know, it did. You know, it did. It meant to return to another type of creativity, or the old creativity. So very cool. I have checked those out. Your Instagram handle is at Marcon yoga, M, a r, k, k, a n yoga. And I saw those, and I didn't realize your art background. And right, when I saw, saw one of the images that you're speaking of, I thought, Well, how did he do that? That's really cool. So it makes sense that you have this art background to be able to, you know, take the yoga aspect and then blend it and marry it together like that. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think yoga, yoga poses, is a very strong esthetic side to them. And, you know, I feel like when you, when you do a yoga pose, when you express a yoga pose, it, it's it. If you do it, you know, reasonably well, I try my best. Then it's sometimes it's an art form in itself. So I like that approach. You know, I can, when I do shoot myself doing yoga poses, I quite kind of like to do my best. Yeah, that's to get it as accurate as possible. But it never, it's never going to be, I don't know what perfection is in an Asana, but I simply do my best, and that's all you know. We can, we can. We can expect really, I hear you, I agree. How has your understanding of yoga practice evolved from it sounds to me, you said you went from Liverpool to London, and during your educational process you discovered yoga. Can you relate a little bit or relay a little bit about what your first impression was upon meeting yoga? Well, my very first impression was when I was probably five years old. I. TV in Liverpool, there used to be a yoga yoga program and and with my sisters and brothers, we would try and do some of the yoga poses together and sit with our legs crossed, and, you know, do the mudra and say arms. But that happened then and then. Yoga never happened in my life until probably almost 30 years later. So I never did any apart from school, you know, some obligatory gymnastics. I never did any exercise in my 20s and early 30s. I'd kind of, I think around that time you would there was, there was a gym culture, you know, people to go to the gym and work out and get biceps and triceps. And I'd kind of want to be part of that culture, but I do it for about four weeks, and I just give up because I just never had the discipline or the desire, you know, so, so I didn't do exercise. I did just a little bit of swimming and yoga. Didn't happen until, you know, until I got into my 30s, and I'd started working working for as a company called BBC, you know, the corporation, oh yeah, started to work there in the publishing department, book design, and lots of the girls were practicing yoga. And I think, you know, lots of celebrities had begun practicing yoga. So it was quite fashionable and and somebody recommended that I have a go there was a yoga studio near where I lived. So I just took myself along along. I went alone one evening. And you know, the class was very, very simple, but it was a really, really beautiful experience, just to be able to be in a room full of not full of people. There weren't many people there, but a very quiet, tranquil room, and maybe do about six or seven poses. I couldn't do much, to be honest with you. I wasn't flexible at the time so, but it just had an effect on me. And so I went back again. I started to go there just regularly, once a week, on my own. And then, you know, I think I told one of my close friends that I'd started to do some yoga, and he recommended that I try a yoga class at his gym, which was not too far from, also not too far from where I lived. So I took myself along to that, and it kind of grew from there, really, you know, it at the time. It wasn't a strong, let's say, spiritual encounter. It was, it wasn't, it wasn't. It didn't feel like that at the time. So it was just curiosity. I didn't know what I was doing. I just felt some attraction towards it. You know, something was pulling me towards it, but I just went along with it, and it kind of grew from there and that point, from that point, I started to experiment with lots of different yoga styles, like Ashtanga Yoga, Bikram yoga, Jiva Mukti yoga. I mean, you know, all of these practices, Hatha flow, Shivananda yoga. So I was a little bit of a, you know, I became a bit of a yoga junkie, trying so many different things. And, you know, I went to New York, that's how I discovered Bikram yoga. A friend of recommended I try Bikram, or hot yoga, when I was in New York, and I was supposed to be outside seeing and I bought this pass to go to the Bikram yoga center every day for, I think it was a 10 day offer, and I, you know, I couldn't keep away from it. So it really did start to just, you know, become a big part of my life quite quickly, within two, two years, it just grew. That's so cool. If you were in New York practicing Bikram. I'm guessing that at some point that is where, when you met Dharma Mitra, how did that evolution come into focus? Well, in fact, that didn't happen when I was in New York. That happened my first encounter with Dharma Mitra was through his book, The 608 yoga pose is a small black book. Yes, I love that I was, I'd be I'd done Bikram yoga in London as well. When I came back from from New York, I found this Bikram yoga center in in London, not far from where I was working at the BBC. And I started to go there. And one day I was. I'd gone with a friend, and I was waiting for him to to finish in the dressing room. So they had a really nice bookshop, and I saw, saw this small black book, and I was, I thought, wow, that's really cool design. I picked it up, and I started to thumb through it. And then these black and white images, no text, just these beautiful black and white images of this, and there were old photographs. So I I looked at the book, and I thought, Oh, it's a shame he's not still alive, because it looks like he'd have been good to practice with. Because I genuinely thought, you know, this Dharma Mitra guy was was dead, looking at the book and looking at the quality of the photos. And then not long after that, I was I'd gone along to do some Ashtanga Yoga, and my teacher there had said that dharma Mitra was coming to London for the first time. So that was my first meeting with him. And that actually, so that was 2005 that I discovered him through his book. And then I started to inquire more about him. And then 2006 in the February he he came to London for the first I think it was the first ever time. I've never really bothered to check that, but I think it was and and that was an amazing experience for me, largely because in 2005 I'd lost my brother very suddenly and and it was a very difficult period for me, and I was struggling to to come to terms with it his death, but also I didn't know how to grieve properly, because I kind of stopped following Any, any, any faith, any, any religious faith that I had. So I kind of grew up in a Catholic environment, and, you know, had all, had all of my my beliefs, and I used to, you know, do my prayers and stuff. And then, you know, over the years, I kind of was questioning everything and and by that point, and then after the death of my brother, I was like, lost, you know, I was just totally lost. Didn't know what to believe, who to believe in, and certainly wasn't believing in in the idea of a God. Then I went along to dharmas first talk in London and and it was like a little bit of an epiphany, because all of the yoga classes I'd been to in London up until that point and in New York, nobody had ever really talked about, you know, or used the word God. People talk about, you know, the higher consciousness or the divine or Brahman, but nobody actually used the word God during any any spiritual talk. And Dharma was the first, and it kind of re somehow reignited my, you know, my belief, really, it was very soothing, the way he was talking as well. And I suddenly felt, kind of felt like I'd come home in, in some kind of way, and, you know? And it's remained like that since, and that's I, you know, that I thank Dharma for because, yeah, that's it's still there with me. I still have, it's not, I don't follow a faith, but I follow, you know, I follow this concept of God, rather than just thinking about, you know, divine consciousness, or, you know, the higher energy. I like this concept of God, you know, a god head and and this, I find I don't know, it kind of makes me feel like safer somehow on my path, I love hearing that. Whether that makes sense, it does mark. I love hearing that because I had a a uni or an interesting experience, too, the first time that I I had practiced with Dharma, and he had done a similar thing using the word God, and I in the way that he had used it, I've i He was quoting Bhagavad Gita, and I didn't realize that. And so when he was saying, I am God in the words of Krishna, I It threw me for a little bit of a loop, because I was kind of like, whoa, whoa. What's going on right now, you know, like, and, but once I then realized later what what had happened, it just gave me a laugh that it also had, I just love those little impacts where our consciousness is challenged and, or, you know, opened, and that was a moment for me too. I and so I love hearing your, your take on that as well, that where you had a bit of clarity in the moment of like, oh, wait, I can integrate this into my life and and have it be authentic. Well, it felt like it was, was almost like it was you. Everything was going to be okay again, you know, pain. I felt like the pain would start to subside because somebody could, you know, I could. There was somebody I could either pray to or, you know, who could, it's hard to explain. It's like the child in me this, you know, the young boy who used to do the prayers and everything that re emerged again, and I just felt like I was kind of in safe hands. I don't know how else to describe it. And, you know, as I say, it's been like that since, and that's really, you know, I love dharmas. He references the Gita lot, a lot. I have this book. This is this mini version of the of the Gita. It's a beautiful book, and it's without any commentary this one, so it's just, you know, verse on first. And it's a really beautiful book because, you know, you can just flick it open and find your favorite quotes. So I look at this a lot, but there's a lot of reference to the Lord as well. And, you know, I enjoy that. It's, it's, it's good for me anyway, that's cool, Mark. You know, being that you are, you appreciate art. You have grown up with Catholicism. You've been exposed to some of the amazing ideas that come from the continent of India in history being in Milan. Now that you live in Milan, and I've never been to Milan, but my experience of traveling through Rome and Tuscany and being able to see some of the churches and history in Italy. I'm curious what your feeling is when you walk into, say, a Catholic church now in Italy, like, I mean, I just love going to the churches to study the architecture, to see the stained glass, to just, like, just the beauty of them, in terms of like that, someone could put that together. I'm curious, what, how do you do visit that often now? Or yes, you know, I'm absolutely love it. I'm fascinated by the, I guess, the the work, the design, the dedication that went into building these churches. And when you go into the interiors, and you see the, you know, the incredible frescoes, and I was in Assisi, you know, in towards the south, or in Umbria, I think it is maybe two years ago, so I went to the chapel of St Francis, and, you know, it's one of those places where you walk in there and you actually you feel like when you're witnessing what you see from an interior point of view, and The frescoes on the walls, and the way the church is is decorated, you think, how can you deny the existence of God when you, when you marvel at the at the beauty of these spaces, but also the Power within these spaces, you know, there's very powerful. So I really enjoy going to churches. There's some incredible places in Rome, and there's one in particular that I love to go to. Every time I go to Rome, I always go in there. You know, I light candles for my family, you know, for the living. You know, for people who I love, keeping them well. So I kind of, I do all of that. I don't know what it might bring, but I just hope that it keeps my family safe and well and oh yeah. I'm very I'm kind of still have all of those traditions in me, yeah. I hear ya. I hear ya. I'm a bit old, actually, so I think I it's what more older generations tend to do. So I hear you. Well, I must be getting old too, because I'm starting to, you know, have my cycle of return as well. Yeah, in where you are in Florida, you have many churches, or um, there are, there are, I don't think, well, that's a really good question, I guess, um, I was gonna say, I don't think that they come anywhere close to what Italy has in relation to just the whole picture, you know, like you said that the beauty and the the history and the thought of somebody up on a scaffolding, however, many hundreds of years ago, like just painstakingly, every little detail. I feel like we do have really beautiful spaces here. But I think. What Italy has is is just, you know, worth it's like a bucket list trip, I think, to actually go and view that, you know, so, but I guess when you say, do you have that here? I would say, Yeah, I think that, you know, when you were talking about going in the feeling the power of the space, I feel like, I often wonder, is the power because of the people, the experience that people have had in the space, and then is that the power of the the actual to visually, see and feel something that pulls up all these ideas, like you said, from childhood, like the the weaving of mythology and the not to just diminish it to a mythology, but to say the mythology that that these churches and spaces hold, I think it has that kind of sitting in front of a beautiful painting experience. So I do believe we have that. But I also would have to go on a limb and say Italy just takes the cake. I think it probably does. Yeah, you know, it really does, because they're all in such close proximity to each other as well, and you're thinking, Where did they get the money from? For all, how many people are there that you know, whether that would come and and come to church. But it is. It's a magical Rome is a magical place. So, you know, it's, it's a very special place. And Milan has really beautiful churches as well, you know, incredible frescoes. But if you I love to do it, just to go and have some quiet time and just, you know, just feel beautiful energy around me. Yeah, even if it's Boris in there, they're all going there because they have the same fascination. So, you know, I don't feel like they're disturbing my peace, because I'm just the same as them. So, you know, I just feel like everybody is, you know, is respectful, and that I like that. If, you know, if I'm sat there, I'm just watching people looking up at ceilings or taking pictures. It's it's still a beautiful thing to observe, because, you know, people still value these spaces, yes, and this energy. So I enjoy it. That's cool. Do you teach your yoga classes in the Italian language? No, I'm really naughty. What I mix it, you know, if I have to, if I know somebody doesn't speak good English, even though they they say they do, you can it's obvious when they're looking at their neighbor, when you tell them to raise their left leg and they're raising their right leg. But, well, I do. I do. Mix it. Mix it so if I can see someone's not not understanding, then I will introduce Italian. But the reason why I don't teach a whole lesson in Italian is that I just feel like I lose the it loses the fluidity, and lose it loses the flow. And, you know, it's like, when you're teaching it, it's, it's almost like you're reading. You can be reading a poem, or you can singing a song. It just, you know, it just flows like that. And the timing as well. And, you know, I, for me, I like to, I don't like to run over in terms of, like, the length of the class, you know, everything's, I'm coming a little bit precise in some ways and and I find that doing it in English, it keeps my timing good, and it, you know, keeps the pace good. So I don't know, it just feels more obviously, it feels more natural for me to say it in English. So, and also, you know, Italy, Italians tend to enjoy this international side of things. So they like, well, I apparently they like lessons in English because they like a little, you know, to test their own knowledge a little bit more. That's cool. That makes sense. Are you? But do you speak Italian? It sounds like you do. My get in there, yeah, when I go to the shops, or if I have to make a call to the government office, then, you know, I'm understood, and I understand them. Now, it wasn't like that in the beginning, but you know, and I have friends who don't speak any English, so I guess I do, but I wouldn't boast that, because somebody would come along and bewilder me with their version. They're beautiful, fluent Italian, and overwhelm me. But yeah, I guess I do. I shouldn't be too modest, because I manage. I'm on a teacher training program at the moment, and all of the students are Italian. And apart from my lessons, everything's in Italian, and I understand the whole program. So some things, but you know, it's not a problem, and I enjoy. It's a beautiful language. It's a beautiful culture. You know. And what I would say about Italians, they're, they're very reverent to yoga practice as well. You know, it's not just physical exercise. The students that I know, you know, they, they do take, you know, they take the practices seriously. They like to do pranayama, meditation, and they like to do the mantras, or, I don't know whether you you know the mantra for purification that we chant at the beginning of a lesson with Dharma yoga. So they all enjoy this. And I also teach every morning during the week, I teach Surya, Namaskar, vinyasa, so it's like a sun salutation, and the first of the first round of Surya Namaskar. There's a mantra for each of the positions in Sanskrit, so I like to chant that for each of the movements and and they all like to follow that as well. So it's, it's nice, you know, they, they do, they do appreciate and respect traditions. So that's cool. You know, when you made mention that delivering a yoga class is almost like either reading a poem or singing a song, I love that idea. And like like you mentioned getting into that flow of feeling like you're delivering something that that is poetic, so to speak. Are you? How do you convey that to a new teacher trainer? Do you have a way of other than just delivering it yourself and figuring everybody capabilities and and what they'll pick up on will be unique for each individual. And so do you try to just lead by example, or is there a teaching technique that you employ to help teacher trainers understand how enjoyable it can be to not just focus on the content, but also to focus on the cadence, the rhythm, and being able to read the room and know what the appropriate cadence and rhythm could be. Well, I find that really important. What I would say is I do know some teachers who, you know, they, when they run teacher training programs, they want the students to say things the way they say them, you know, and say and teach the class according to how they would teach. You know, it's almost like a blueprint. So it becomes this particular method that's that's not how I would encourage someone to teach, though I will What observe people. What I like to do is get people off the mat so that they're not just glued to their mat and demonstrating every position. Because when they're doing that they're not really observing what the student, you know, the practitioners are doing. So I try to encourage people, if they need to demonstrate, maybe just demonstrate one side, and then move around the room and move your energy around each of the individuals you know. So you're imparting something rather than just, rather than just a verbal instruction. So you're putting your own energy around that. But I like people to find their own voice, you know? I think that's it has to be that kind of authenticity for me, because I don't, you know, I when I'm teaching, let's say Dharma Mitra. I can still hear how he says things, you know, from when I used to be in New York a lot, you know, I can still hear His voice and some of his gestures, and they seem to come, you know, the way he might, sort of like, just hold his hands. Sometimes you find yourself doing it, but it's, it's kind of, it's not copying, it's just, I don't know, incorporating a little bit of him into your teaching practice. So I do sometimes hear His voice, you know, when I'll say, I'll break the pose, you know, which is something he would say, when you get to the end of a busy he wants take you out of the position. He would say, break the pose. You know, I still use that. So I think there are some things that you can incorporate from the teacher, you know, or from a training program, let's say, but I wouldn't want that to be, you know, a kind of a blueprint for what you should say, how you should say, you know, as you said, the different cadenzas and stuff like that. I think, for me, I think people should have their own voice. And, you know, because people, like some of the people I'm teaching now, they've got beautiful energy, and if they were. Going to try and teach like Mark can they would lose that, you know, because I can be in a yoga class. I'm not a soft, warm, embracing teacher that doesn't seem to be me, you know, I feel compassionate, but sometimes it doesn't come across in a compassionate way, because I, you know, I'll bark orders in some not, not in an aggressive way, but I'll say, you know, do it like it's I don't know. I don't know what to how to describe myself. But I definitely don't think people would say, Oh, these, this really soft, you know, warm teacher, because it's not true. And, you know, and some people are naturally inclined to teach like that, and it's beautiful, and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. I think, you know, find your voice. Don't over, don't over, egg it in the sense that, you know, don't, don't make it too, too flowery with your words, because maybe, if that suits you. But if I'm observing you when you're on the teacher training program and trying to, you know, you can save that for when you leave the program. You can say what you want, do what you want, and teach what you want. But while we're here together, I would prefer you to kind of, you know, not pad it out with too much, let's say flowery stuff, if that makes sense. It does. I get that. I totally, I know what you mean. You know, I from watching or seeing your Instagram posts. You have a strong to me, it appears that you have a strong practice, that you've connected with some of these more challenging postures. And I'm curious you. You don't have to share your age, but you made mention. You said, I'm getting older, and so I'm really curious to hear how you're navigating sensation in the body and depth in your asana practice, and what happily share that with you please. Yeah, I'll be 62 Yeah. So I'm I'm not young, and I'm kind of very not proud of that, but I just feel very thankful for the fact that I am at this stage in my life and I'm still enjoying the asana practice that I have. So how do I navigate? I tell you what's happened over the years, and I also will say that I think, I think COVID had an effect as well, this isolation from from people, I've softened my practice over the last couple of years. It could be the aging process. I don't know how. I never look at into the science of how the body ages once you get, you know, into your late 50s or early 60s. I don't know what I don't want to know about that too much as long as I feel okay. But there are some things that don't really interest me the way they used to, you know, some transition some lifts, you know, stuff like this, it's kind of, I leave that for the younger people. I've experienced it. I've been through the process, you know, I've been through the mental process as well as the physical process. And so I'm happy to to teach these things to people, but I don't have to put that into my daily practice. Still have a strong daily practice, which I enjoy, but some of the, some of the big lifts and stuff that I used to do, I kind of doesn't really do it for me as much as it used to. I don't know what used to I mean, the the mind used to be, used to be an incredible journey. You know, physically and mentally when you can, you know, control your body in the way that I used to be able to. But I don't feel like it's necessary for me to keep maintaining that anymore. And I think I keep everything at a reasonably okay level, and that's kind of enough, because I feel like, as I've got older, I feel like the physical side is more it is maintenance in terms of, like, keeping me healthy, keeping the body in good condition, but, you Know, for more mental stuff and to go deeper into, you know, deeper into my own consciousness. I I, I prefer to sit and work with my meditation practice and and pray. So that's kind of where I am. But of course, I enjoy teaching. Asana as well. You know, I think it's the beauty. It's a wonderful sort of gateway into the deeper practices. Let's say, if you want there to be deeper practices, but it's, it's still important to me to practice it myself and to teach it. But, you know, I like to keep time aside for sitting and breathing and yes, yes, great answer. That's a great answer, Mark. I feel like that's a very holistic response that is very encouraging and and content like this, I feel a sense of contentment from you, which is very refreshing. That's a really nice place to land. I love that you brought up. Let's leave that for the younger folks. That's really, you know what I mean? Like, I really, I really enjoyed this. This was such an I had such a great time, and I'm so excited to see other people getting the same sort of joy that I did. And I'm perfectly okay right now to be where I am and and seeing that sort of like progression in the stages, I think that's really I don't know that we could do it any other way than that, like I don't, I don't know that yoga would push us into any other way of appreciating life. Because, I mean, I don't know it's so incredible, isn't it? I mean, I just, I can't stop being amazed at what this yoga practice can really bring in the way that the personal development piece as that improves, the yoga improves and as the yoga but improvement, not in the realm of physical posturing and performance, but yoga in the sense of, You know, just like the yoga keeps improving, and I like the way that you sound, like, I like to sit, you know, like that. That's like, a that's a really amazing part of the yoga practice. When you get to that point where, like, I am just so happy to sit right here, right now, I just think, you know, I still do things with my asana practice that I wasn't doing, you know, I mean, I'm still achieving new things with Asana, believe it or not. I think my best practice, my best asana practice, happened throughout my 50s. You know, when I was in my 50s, I achieved things which I never imagined would happen. It's been like an incredible journey, and it still is. I, you know, I mean, over the past month or so, I started to work with positions that I hadn't tried before, and I was surprised that, you know, that I can manage it. So, you know, it's incredible. It's fascinates me still, but I don't need to do all of it. You know, I can just play around with things. You know, they keep me in a in more of a comfort zone. I don't take myself too much out of my comfort zone anymore. I know what I'm I can do without injuring myself. And you know, I'm more conscious of take taking care of my body when I when I do Asana now, I probably used to take a few more risks before, whereas I won't do that now. So you know you have to, you know you have to be if you're out of action, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's not a good example that you're setting for your students if you get into doing poses. But also, I've always been the kind of teacher who doesn't like to just stand there and tell the students what to do and direct them through, you know, a class without doing anything. I think I like to? I like to, you know, show people some things that, you know, if, especially if it's a difficult pose, like, try to encourage them into into, you know, give them some good advice about how to move into a position safely. So I do demonstrate, but I don't do the whole lesson. I cut my I don't, I don't have a map down. Normally, when I'm teaching, I'm just walking around the room and, you know, or I'll stand next to somebody and show them something. So that's, that's kind of how I work. Great point is there a philosophical, either book or viewpoint that you've come across recently, you've held up the Bhagavad Gita. So I obviously you're a fan of that particular text. Is there a philosophy or book that you've come across recently that gave you that aha moment again? Because, I mean, I personally, I keep. Having the aha moment, you know? I can pick up a book and or I can pick up the same I can pick up the Bhagavad Gita again and go, Oh, wow, wow. Who would have thought that was going to impact me like this today, you know? So I'm has. Have you come across anything this week that gave you or this month or recently that gave you the aha moment again, within the realm of the grand world of yoga philosophy. Well, not so much, if I'm being honest with you, not so much yoga philosophy. I don't know whether you've heard of I just think you probably have heard of Joe Dispenza. Oh yeah, yes. You know. I love his approach to meditation. And, you know, the science that he the science behind everything that the research that he puts behind everything to do with meditation and consciousness and, you know, energy, I find that really interesting. Instead of reading books just on spirituality, because there's something tangible that you've kind of tangible when you're thinking about energy and atoms. But I find his work really interesting. And so he's got a couple of good books, which is what the recent one was becoming supernatural. And then he's also had another book called Breaking the Habit of being yourself. And I really enjoy listening to them on audio, but reading them as well. So I have them on Kindle, and I listen to the audio versions, and it always, it always gives me something new to think about, and that's really interesting, because I think I'm not really going to get spiritual. I don't really, I haven't come across a book which is apart from the guitar. And I love the I tell you, who else's books I love is I younger's books I find him, you know, if, if, let's say Dharma Mitras, like my guru, a living guru now through for asana and, you know, other practices, pranayama, with, with Iyengar, his, his Wisdom, the books that he wrote have just been incredible sources of knowledge for pranayama, for yoga sutra. So I really like his books, and I still pick up the books. And I, you know, quote, quote, the books on teacher training. But you know, as far as, like a living person who's making some impact in the world about consciousness, about energy and and using meditation as a vehicle through which we can begin to understand consciousness and energy. I think Joe Dispenza is doing quite a writing about quite remarkable things. So forgive me, if that's not directly related to yoga, but he also uses the the energy centers. You know, he in his meditations. I don't know whether you've heard any of his meditations, but he, you know, he talks about the chakra system as well. And I find him. He's, I, you know, is the science is really interesting. And there's a really nice parallel there with Dharma Dharma Mitra, because he loves science as well. And, you know, he used to talk on the teacher trainings about antennas, you know, how we use it, when you make these analogies about mobile phones having their own signals. And, you know, he was kind of talking about, in some ways, about the quantum field. Or, you know, these are the fields, you know, that we can communicate through. So I don't feel like, I certainly don't feel like Joe, Joe Dispenza and people like him are very far away from the path that we're we're on through yoga. I mean, he also talks about yoga a lot. I think you're right. I think you're right. That's a great answer. I have read both of the books that you made mention of becoming supernatural and breaking the habit of becoming yourself. I found great value in them, especially when I was going through a real tough kind of pain pattern. One of the techniques that he, that I learned from him, that I really feel like I got great benefit from, was sort of the visualization or imagination of seeing myself like what? So I would take a walk, and if I was feeling pain in my body, I would try to imagine seeing myself walking into my future self of not having pain in my body. And even though I conceptually couldn't quite really believe it at the time, because when pain is so really think, how am I going to break. Make this, you know, how am I or how am I going to how's this pattern going to change? But just giving me that kind of future idea that it will, it can, and then trying to visualize it, I don't know. I just, I really connected with him when I when I was going through a tough time. I agree with you. I feel like his work is amazing. And then the more that I keep reading other people's works that are around the quantum field or quantum physics field, I feel like, oh, I kind of go back to Wow. He's really brilliant in the way that he's presenting it in such a tangible, easy to digest form for our current you know who we are now in this modern era, and you know, his passion for what he does, you know, I think it's, it's, he's not necessarily just monetizing what he does. I mean, he does, which is good luck to him, but it's, it's the fact that he, you know, he puts so much back into research, you know, to try to validate his claims. Well, he does validate his claims through his research, and that's what I love. So, so that's kind of another source I listen to a lot of you know, I like YouTube's a real Amazing, isn't it? We thought for knowledge. Can you even believe that, Mark? I mean, like, you know, when we think back to our childhood, can you even believe, you know, yeah, you know, if I want that coupled with chat, GPT, yes, you know, where was all of that when we were growing up? But, you know, it's, it's fascinating, you know, if I, if I have any, if I need any information now, then, then it's, you know, often it will be through chat. GPT, so, yeah, so it's very, very good. It's pretty exciting. I agree. I know, worryingly good, because, I mean, you just feel like there is somebody on the other side talking to you, responding to you, yeah, we're just gonna have to roll with it at this point, I think. And I think I think, you know, use it. Use it to your advantage. And but don't I think you you kind of have to still think for yourself really, instead of just relying on it for everything. So I just use it. Use it for various things. Good point mark, and I'm really curious, um, can you tell me a little bit about what your current project of setting up the website that you're working on, what sort of track you're going down with with its creation? Okay? Yes, thank you for asking that. And I'm not, didn't mention this before to try and promote this. But you know, as we were talking about how, you know, through Asana, now, I don't really feel like I need to be doing everything, or, you know, I leave, leave stuff to the young, younger people to do. I feel like I've reached a point in my teaching where I want to, want to help people who are older. So, you know, I'm developing this, this program, this website, which commercially, I've called it 50 plus, you know. And I've created a website, or a platform where people who are, you know, getting on a bit, bit more mature, can go to if they've never practiced yoga before, or if they already have practiced yoga for some years, but want to, you know, continue with their yoga practice. I feel like, sometimes, at the moment, I may be wrong, because I'm not out there in lots of yoga schools, and I don't really keep track of what's going on in the whole global community, but I do feel like, you know, with with the, let's not say trends, but let's use a word like trends to describe what's going on with yoga. It can, it can often leave people who are a little bit more mature feeling excluded, you know, when you see people balancing on their hands and doing crazy transitions, you know, and with the lots of more fashionable styles of yoga, and I won't mention any, any of the styles, but, you know, it kind of can be targeted towards a your younger audience, you know. And I'm not part of that audience myself now, being my age, but I feel like, you know, there are I, you know, I teach people over 50, and, you know, they still, you know, really enjoy practicing yoga. You know, they're kind of, I don't want them to be forgotten. And I feel like I can be probably a good, not a role model, but I'm in good shape, you know, for my age. And. You know, I'm still practicing, you know, to a reasonably good level, so I should be able to help and inspire people who are wanting to become familiar with yoga at a more mature age. You know, I got into it when I was around the mid 30 mark. So I was that age, but there are people now who want to embrace Yoga, you know, around the late 40s, early 50s mark, or even beyond. And, you know, I just want to give them a little bit of a voice and help them. So that's the plan. Is to set up this. Well, I've set up the website. I just haven't launched it because kind of a little bit nervous about it for some reason, and it's a big step, you know, because, you know, I'm kind of in the community that that I'm involved in. I'm known as this kind of teacher who teaches, probably more advanced practice, and the you the the audience is always younger, so I'm going to be shifting my teaching to an older demographic. And there's a little bit of trepidation, a bit of fear there, because I don't know whether it will work, but I hope it will work, because, you know, I should be an example of somebody who, who can, you know, you can look at and say, Look this, I've not done any other exercise in my life. This is, I'm this, in this condition because of yoga asana. And, you know, I have knowledge as well of yoga philosophy and yoga science, which I can share with people, different breathing techniques I can share with people. I also have different meditation techniques, so they're not just confined to to yoga, traditional yoga. So I'm also interested in, you know, Zen meditation, and I think I'd like to incorporate that into this platform, which I don't have the opportunity to do through my normal roots. Because, you know, most people tend to want to just do physical exercises, and, you know, do Asana. And I feel like, you know, as you get older, you know, you start to question things a little bit more. And it's not about sticking your legs behind your head, you know, it's about, you know, exploring your own consciousness, going deeper into the levels of your own mind. And, you know, I have that knowledge, and I'm never able to share that with people, and I think I want an audience to be able to share that with and I really enjoy pranayama and the different techniques. And I feel like maybe, you know, people are a little bit more mature, might be more receptive to that, not the young people aren't by any means. But, you know, I don't know. Well, see what happens with it. I can identify with everything you're saying, Mark, I think you're on the right track. I do. I think you're on the right track. I had a similar I think I'm still on the similar journey to what you're saying. I can, I can relate 100% and when COVID happened, we had a teacher. I was always teaching the strong the classes and the more challenging dynamic vinyasa flow type stuff. And then I had, I brought somebody in to do gentle yoga that was catering more toward some of our population, where we are and when COVID happened, we had to let some teachers go, just to kind of hang on to the fort type of thing and do it all ourselves. And so I thought, well, I'll teach that class, you know? I mean, it's outside of my wheelhouse, but my I'm gonna give it a shot. And I love it. I absolutely love the experience of just toning it way down. And I'm finding the response to be incredibly positive, and I'm just kind of having a little chuckle at myself, of like, well, you know, who would have thought? And here I am, you know. So I, I think, I think you're on the right track, man. And I do think that 100 everything you're saying, I'm just like, Yeah, that's so cool, because it's going to be successful because, and I'm meeting so many young folk that I would have assumed that would only like, when they come in, I'll sometimes be like, I just want to let you know, this is gentle yoga. You know, this is going to be really chill. And they're like, Oh no, that's exactly what I want right now. Like, I have a lot of stress going on, or I don't really want to do anything too crazy right now. I just want to relax. And, okay, great, great. And, you know, so I love that aspect too, where a surprise almost comes out of it, where you're like, you know, there's, it's really appropriate for everyone, really and then it does open the angle, please. Uh, you know, not everybody wants to do super strong Asana, you know, it's not for everybody. And people, people often say this to me, you know, it's it's not for everybody and my classes. Are you still there? Todd, I think you've frozen. So perhaps, have I lost you? I'm still here. I'm still here. I can hear you. I can hear you, yeah, yeah. I heard all that. So maybe I froze. So that worked out, perfect. Yeah, you froze a little bit. But you know, you know people, people often say to me, you know, what I teach isn't for everybody, and so I have a limited audience, really. I don't have, you know, lots of people coming to my classes, you know, I think when you're you're teaching more advanced Asana, you know, you lose your audience. But it's kind of something that I will always been associated with, and I'm quite happy to hand over the mantle now and plenty of other, you know, teachers who teach all of that, the stuff that I teach, and I just feel like I want to, I don't want to leave that behind completely, you know, I still want to teach these lessons, but also want to concentrate on on a different audience who I can relate to a little bit more as well. Don't forget, you know, I'm teaching people who are 20 years younger than me most of the time. And I think it would be nice for me to mix with my own demographic, perhaps, yes, so let's see. You know, that's awesome, Mark, that's cool. You know, I really, I really enjoyed this. What a nice surprise. I mean, Thank you, Andrew, for introducing the two. Thank you for introducing us. And I'm just real grateful for this opportunity, Mark, and I really appreciate you being open and just sharing your experiences that you've had throughout life. You know, is there? Is there anything you would like to close with, or any final thoughts or closing remarks that you would like to add to perhaps inspire and or encourage us to still feel motivated to pursue yoga practice. Well, I was on my mat this morning, and you know it was, it's it's one hour, it's quite an intense, tense lesson. And sometimes you're aware of the timing and things like this and and the next pose that you're going to be moving into. And sometimes you you're not always totally present. And and one of the things I had to say to myself today was, and also remind other people of is just to be thankful that you're you're able to do this instead of just getting through it. Be thankful that you can, you know, have gratitude, because there will come a point when you can't do these things, you know, for whatever reason. And you know, it might be your age, you know, might be illness at some point as well. So my, my take from this morning is just to be really thankful that that we're able to to do Asana right now and and it keeps you in the present moment as well. You know, just staying present during your asana practice, we get lost so many times when we're practicing, we're thinking about what's going what the next pose might be, or what's going to happen after the class, or, you know, or if you're teaching it, your timing, everything, various things, or if you're working on Zoom, whether the sound is going to drop out or whatever. So I think, be show gratitude during your practice, and yeah, and just be thankful and be present. That's all I can say. And that's, you know, we're always learning lessons. You see Todd, you know, there's always different sort of like shifts in our awareness that happen when we're when we're living, but also during the asana practice. But today was all about just be thankful. You know it all right. It might be a tough pose, but be thankful that you're able to do it. Because, you know, a year or so down the line, or two years, I used to watch Dharma Mitra when I first knew him, and he wasn't doing advanced Asana the way you'd see him doing on his yoga, his 908 yoga poses. And I used to think, Oh, why does he Why doesn't he do those things anymore? You know, because I used to think at the time, I would never let that go if I had that but you know, I've got to his stage in life, the stage that he was. Then I'm now there, and now I understand. You know how it is, how, how the mind, you know what we go through. And you know the poses aren't everything, but you know for many people, it's. It's a beautiful practice. Asana is an art form in itself, and as we talked about earlier, and so just enjoy it for as long as you can. But you know you have to let go as well. You don't own the poses as Dharma used to say, you know, they're not yours. So just, you know, enjoy them while you can, and then bid farewell when, when you have to So, oh, well said, Mark. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful and thankful for this opportunity, and I really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, I'm thankful to Andrew for introducing us. He's a very, very dear friend and his lovely wife, Pam, so we're going to be doing a retreat together, the three of us in in England. Oh, wow, Wales. Wow. In Wales, in Wales. Oh, man Andrews Welsh. I know, I know. When is that? That's in September. So the three of us are coming together. This is a first, and we're going to create this very beautiful Dharma yoga retreat so and we have, you know, the three of us, we've been really great friends for so long, but, you know, because they're over in the US and I've been here, but we've always maintained a really good relationship. And finally, we've decided to do something together. It's only for a long weekend together, but I think it I'm very excited, because I love them both, and we're going to do something very special for our United Sangha, so, so that's that's great, wow. Well, for everyone listening, I can attest, Pam and Andrew are just really special, sweet people. We're so grateful to have them teaching here a class and and likewise, Mark, you're, you know, very thoughtful. And I really, I think I want to go. I hope I can swing it. I've never been to Wales, so maybe somehow the universe will, will, will play into this, and I'll make it so that sounds incredible. And once again, Mark, thank you and I hopefully I will have an opportunity to to meet you in real time and get a chance to practice with you. Thank you. Been a pleasure. Anyway. Thank you much. Love. Thank you. Native yoga. Todd cast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. 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