Robert Sturman - Capturing the Beauty of Yoga Through the Lens

Robert Sturman is a renowned photographer known for his exceptional ability to capture the essence of yoga and human expression through his lens. With a storied career that spans decades, Robert has traveled the world, photographing notable yoga instructors, diverse subjects in unique settings such as prisons and military bases, and cultures enriched with depth. He is also a passionate advocate for humane practices and leads online photography courses to empower others.

Visit Robert on his website: https://www.robertsturmanstudio.com/
Follow him on IG: https://www.instagram.com/robertsturman/
And Otis the Handsome Hound: https://www.instagram.com/otisthehandsomehound/?img_index=1

Key Takeaways:

• The Evolution of an Artist: Robert Sturman’s journey from a novice to a master photographer, fueled by passion and a deep desire to help people see the world differently.
• Capturing Emotions: The significance of mindfulness in photography and how one powerful image can convey the richness of human experience.
• Yoga and Photography: How Robert’s connection to yoga has enriched his work and why he believes yoga poses are akin to artistic figurative poetry.

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Chapters

• 0:04 Robert Sturman's Journey from Amateur to Master Photographer
• 9:53 Robert Sturman's Journey from Yoga Novice to Yoga Photographer
• 15:32 The Painterly Photography of Robert Sturman
• 20:54 Navigating Photography Etiquette in Yoga Classes and Prisons
• 26:26 The Transformative Power of Yoga and Meditation in Prisons
• 36:00 Balancing Spontaneity and Editing in Photography
• 42:11 Rehabilitating Dogs and Inmates Through Prison Programs
• 47:52 Coping with Trauma and Empathy Through Ethical Living
• 50:53 The Intersection of Art, Empathy, and Personal Growth
• 1:02:17 Alan Finger's Influence on Robert Sturman's Photography Journey
• 1:06:56 Honoring Artistic Journeys and Genuine Human Connections

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast, so happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage, body work and beyond. Follow us at @nativeyoga and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello. Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin, and I am beyond thrilled to bring to you, Robert Sturman. Now I have a feeling that if you are a yoga practitioner and you've been on social media, and you're on social media, you have seen Robert's imagery. He has photographed so many yoga practitioners all over the world, mastering the craft of photography and bringing us these unbelievable images. I've been a huge fan for years, and I finally reached out to him, asked him to be a guest. He graciously accepted, and I am so pleased to bring this conversation to you. Please, please, please, go check out Robert Sturman on his Instagram handle, which is @robertsturman also check him out on Facebook. He has a very active Facebook page. People comment like crazy and like because his images are so amazing, and definitely go check him out on his website. Robert, he has an online workshop that teaches photography, which I am taking. I'm so excited. Just got done speaking with him, and I'm like, I'm definitely gonna take his course, because I love trying to improve my ability to convey my love and passion for yoga through imagery and through our social media channels. And so I need some help and and I think I found my teacher. Quite honestly, I really like Robert. He was so nice. I can't wait for you to listen to this conversation, and please, also, in the process, go to at@otisthehandsomehound on Instagram. You're going to hear a little bit more about Otis during this conversation. I was unfamiliar with Otis, and I am just enamored right now with how cool and what a positive message and how beautiful. So I can't wait. I can't wait to meet Robert in the future. My dream now is to actually have a photo photography session with him and have him take my picture, because the guy's a genius. So, all right, that's probably enough gushing. All right, let's begin. What a cool opportunity I have now to meet Robert Sturman, Robert, I'm so excited to to see you in person, to get a chance to meet you. I've been watching and following your photography for years now, and I'm just blown away. You're so talented. I have so many questions for you, but before we start, how are you feeling today? I feel great. I'm honored to be here and meet a new friend who actually knows me through my work. And I'm looking forward to getting to know you too. Oh, thanks, Robert. You know, recently, I had a chance to interview a woman named Liz Corwin, and when I was trying to find a photograph to advertise Lynn's episode with I went to her website, and I saw a photo of her on the beach doing this really amazing posture, yoga pose. And I was like, that's got to be a Robert Sterman photo. And, and so then I took the photo, and I wrote her, and I said, you got this one you have this one photo on your website. It looks like a Robert Sterman photo. And she, she actually, yeah. Said, great, you know, thank you. Yes, and, and I guess I bring that up because your work is so distinct, and you're, I mean, you're a master photographer. What I I'm not, I like to think I'm a hobbyist, like, of course, because everybody has an iPhone these days, and so maybe everybody, you might think, everyone, has the potential to be a great photographer. Um. But your quality of work and your composition is so impressive, I gotta ask you. I gotta just dig in here and just find out some of your history and like, how did you get started with all this? You're also a big time yoga person. You you've taken pictures of some of the most well known yoga teachers around the planet. I saw a picture you took of someone in Nairobi, Kenya, in their traditional dress, with this beautiful sunset behind. And I thought, man, he traveled all the way to Africa. And then I see pictures recently you took of these yogis in Cuba. And I mean the the way you capture the architecture, the light, the color, and then the mood and the feeling of the people that you're capturing. It's just next level. So where do we start? I mean, how did you get involved in this? What is your what's your inspiration to get started in photography? Well, first of all, I appreciate you saying all that, because we are going through a transitional time where some of the value of the richness of what photography can be is being confused because of the invention of the iPhone and so much so many photographs being created every day, which is a great thing, but it does push me to master my craft even further, to distinguish between a snapshot and A powerful image. So back to your other question, I was just thrown into a photography class when I was 14. I went to boarding school, and my father gave me a camera. When we got there, he surprised me with a camera, a film camera. This is back in 1984 and and he just we enrolled myself in to basic black and white photography. And at the time, I asked him what I was supposed to take photographs of. And he just said, I don't know anything that you love. So he wasn't really thinking much about it, and I wasn't thinking much about it, but I do remember that, and I have to say that that has been the inspiration for my entire career. Wow. So that's how I got started in photography, and I was not very good at it, you know. But I think that the way life works for some people, like, the best analogy I can use is like a punk rock band. They might not know their instruments at first, but they really have something to say and and that's what happened with me. I didn't. I was very clumsy at photography. I was terrible at it, to tell you the truth, and would copy other students, and I just and then once in a while, I would get lucky and get something that was, Wow, that's, that's a nice picture, like once in a blue moon, and what I learned how to do because I had such a deep desire to self Express and put this tremendous amount of emotion that I was experiencing as a human, to find a way to place it somewhere and work with it. And this before I had the practice of yoga to also help me with that and and so then one, every once in a while, I would get lucky, and then I learned how to just copy that luck. And so I would develop a language. It became my language to to get lucky a lot. I knew how to control the luck, and I knew what the formulas were for how to get powerful pictures like, oh well, the sun needs to be behind you, and just basic things like that that can lead towards a strong picture, a low perspective, with without too much, too many busy objects behind the figure. So slowly I learned how to do all that, and then it just became my language. Wow, but that's, you know, that it took years. Yes, man, that's so cool. You know, I I'm so fascinated by photography, and I want to do the same. I really want to take a photography course. And recently, I noticed that you are offering an online photography course. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like, if I wanted to jump in, how does the structure of the course work in relation like, how do I actually interact with it? Yeah. Well, it's it's two and a half hours, and I basically poor share all of my lifetime of knowledge, but in the most simple way, because I'm a fan of, if you if a kindergartner can't understand it, then I haven't taught it well, I truly believe in simplicity, and because I want everyone to succeed, and they can make it as complicated as they want from there as a foundation. But what it is? It it it, not only is interesting, because it it, I use my work to take people on a global journey, as I photograph anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, you know, from prisons to the military to Africa, but it's showing people the techniques along the way and how to see like and when You learn how to see you like shift your perspective and see certain ways your photographs will naturally become much more powerful. And it doesn't matter what phone you're using, any camera. The best camera is the camera in your hand. Nice and look, I've done some amazing work with the with the iPhone and covers of magazines to tell you the truth, that's cool, because I like usually I'll think, Okay, well, I'm getting ready to take a course. I gotta now. I need to now get a really professional piece of equipment, and I'm getting from you that you're saying, start with what you have. You can do great work. Just get started. Don't, don't worry about these, you know, the invention of photography in the 1800s I mean, look at what the kind of cameras they have, yeah, you know. And there's some incredible pictures that came out of those. So I think it's completely overrated about how much technology that we need in order to make great art. And there's been a few times where I got caught up in like, oh, I need this. And it was because there was so much noise coming from the outside about like, people telling me what I should be doing as a professional. But, you know, caso has an incredible quote. He He was asked, Pablo, what would you do if you were sent to to prison and they took away your your paints, and he'd say, he said, I'd spit on my finger and draw on the wall. Yes, just, I'll just take exactly what I have and still create art. Yeah, beautiful. Now you made a great already, analogy in relation to what yoga can do in terms of our perception, like you mentioned, you know, that we can capture an incredible image and the way that you relate to the work that you're doing. I'm curious to hear what your first interaction with yoga was. Well, I grew up in Los Angeles, so you had a lot, you had a lot in front of you, yeah, yeah, it was around it. It was never a weird thing, you know, it just, it was here. So Yoga works was started here. And when I was 18, I had a girlfriend who worked at the front desk at YogaWorks. So I tried my first class then and on Montana, the main one. And then I think that, well, I'm not sure there's Main Street in Montana, both which are no longer in existence, and we'll probably touch base on that later. But was that with Chuck Miller? Was that with Chuck was that with Chuck Miller and Maddie mate? Yeah? Wow, yeah. Legends in the world of teaching and the influence that they had on the entire yoga culture, not only just from the vinyasa Ashtanga side and Iyengar side, but also just in terms of selling it and having them that spring into one of the largest yoga franchises in the nation. And anyway, sorry not to interrupt, though that's that's okay. And I think that so many of the the teachers came through them. And I don't know if your teacher, Tim, came through them. Tim, I feel like, Tim, thank you. I noticed that Tim Miller, I feel like Tim and Chuck were contemporaries, and they were both, they were both feeding off of each other, and Tim was located down in Encinitas, and Chuck was up in Santa Monica. And I feel like they were friends. And I always heard Tim say how much he loved Chuck and practicing with Chuck. And I feel like. They both were, you know, pushing each other, you know, encouraging each other, yeah, yeah, amazing. So I took, I would take a few classes, and then in college, I in Santa Cruz, I took it as, I don't know, an extracurricular, and it was just always around and and I was never a serious practitioner. I just would, once in a while, someone would drag me to a class, or I hit a class, and then it wasn't until I was I went to India, and when I came back, I started to practice a little more, and there were some transitions that I had to go through, and I knew in my mind that this thing called Yoga could help me be a stronger person. Like, that's the that's the idea I had about yoga and meditation, is that people that did that could handle anything like, I don't know how true that really is, but that's what I was ideologically conditioned to believe. I like that. It is true. It has been true for me. Yes, that's cool, man, I hear ya and then so I'm thinking, I'm just in my own mind, I'm I'm imagining then if you were a budding photographer starting at age 14 in 1984 your your girlfriend was 18, so we're talking maybe four years later, somewhere around about there. It doesn't matter, but, but that you then somebody said, or you decided I'm bringing my camera to the studio, or somebody said, Hey, I saw you take pictures. Will you take a picture of me doing a yo practicing yoga? How did your invest so funny. I love it your your timeline is great. Not four years later, probably 18, probably 17 years later. Okay, all right, it's like the 17 years later. So okay, so it took some time before you started pulling the camera out in a yoga environment, right? What happened was, at that time that I in my 30s, when I decided I wanted to develop a practice, I started to volunteer for a magazine which called, I guess they were called Yogi times. Ah, I've seen that once a month they would do a teacher profile. And I said I would do their portrait for the profile because I wanted to. I wanted more yoga in my life, so I figured if I was photographing it a teacher for the profile once a month, I would just be surrounded with more yoga. It's kind of like Van Gogh had to live with the Potato Eaters, and ate potatoes for a long time while he painted his whole Potato Eaters. Yes, yes. And and then the process. And then I looked around and I saw that it was some of the most beautiful figurative poetry I'd ever seen in my life. Like as far as art history was concerned, it had everything. And I never seen anything quite like it, where you had these human beings that were in these postures that expressed longing and devotion and reaching towards the divine. And these are very, very serious themes in the history of art, and so I was able to look at that and just say, this is cool. This I'm surrounded by this. These are my these are my models. Like I was such a blessing. And back then, I was doing a process of photography with the Polaroids. So they were very painterly photographs that I carved into before the emulsion was would solidified, and so they were very pain, yeah, painterly photographs that I did for a good portion of my career, which I no longer do, because the film is obsolete, but I did a massive series called impressions of yoga using the Polaroid camera and then the keys and pen caps to do the carvings. And this is before Photoshop was invented. How cool it was before I could say something like, I'll fix it. Later in Photoshop. Wow. And so what this technique taught me was to pay attention, and that's where I started to develop the concept of the yoga of seeing. Because when you make a photograph, when you're very present with it and you're really seeing and connecting with it, you're not going to shoot 5700 times with a prayer to get lucky. Perhaps you can just make one exposure and then walk away. And that seemed very important to me. This is a miracle, that we can even record something with a camera. So with this Polaroid, I would take the picture, the lighting had to be perfect with the sun, because it was so temperamental. And then the camp, the image would come right out of the camera. And so that had to be perfect. And then I'd warm it up, and then start carving into it. And if I screwed up, I had to throw it away. So really, it just taught me, Wow, how to be mindful and pay attention. I know I'm being very chatty right now. You know, it's great. I love to see the world through an artist's eyes, like the way that you're explaining. It gives me, like, this rare glimpse into like, how does an artist do what they do, and I love hearing the backstory. So this is incredible. Thank you. Do you have a picture of your final product that I could look online or put in the link in the description that people can see on my website, there's a whole the last section of portfolios is the Polaroid process. But here I know we're doing a yes. So this is a in Kathmandu, Nepal. And so this is an example of first you have to start with a great photograph. Is this one of the Polaroid photos at your desk, and the engraving part, oh my gosh, yeah, it's all there. So first you have to start with a great photograph, and then you have to do the warm it up in the sun or on my skin, and then the carving, there's a lot of pressure, you can't mess up. So it looks like there's all over the world. There's like a waviness to it like it creates this almost like distortion, almost like you're looking through the water in a pool, and you see the way the lines kind of move around when the sun shining through the water. It almost does that to the photo, which was a perfect marriage for yoga, because what it allowed me to do was create photographs, well, painterly photographs that actually express what it feels like to be deep in a practice. Whoa. And when you said painterly photograph before, I was kind of like, Am I hearing him right? What is he? What is that? But now that I saw that, you're right, it's like someone painted that photograph. How freaking cool. Robert. Dude, amazing. So you got this connection going with, oh, actually, where I want to what I want to ask you, is one thing and Okay, so I've had to slowly get comfortable with taking people's photographs. Say, like in the yoga room, I always have this feeling of like, okay, I'm teaching the class, and people are practicing, and we have different types of classes, like we do my source style Ashtanga, where it's a little I could sneak away and grab my phone and capture a photo while they're practicing. And it wouldn't be hugely disruptive if, while I'm teaching, say, a lead class, I wouldn't just pull out my phone and go, hey, everybody smile and, you know, take a picture. So I get nervous about capturing people's photos without their permission, and I just have this whole like, internal struggle that goes on with, like, how do I do this? And are people, and I worry about what people are gonna think in terms of, Am I ruining the moment by pulling up my camera so and now, obviously you could be photographing, I could be teaching, and that's a completely different dynamic. But it seems like, over the years, our perception of what's appropriate to take photos of and the timing to take photos has evolved and changed. Can you speak a little bit about that in terms of your own experience and what the yoga world how the yoga world has changed in relation to allowing this like onslaught of, like, digital media. At every second, people are taking pictures of everything they do, and now it's just accepted. You see someone doing a selfie while they're out hanging off the edge of a cliff, and you're like, Oh yeah, they're just taking a selfie and, like, sticking their lips out while they do it. And we're like, it's no big deal. Whereas, like, 10 years ago or 20 years ago, we might have been like, what are they doing? Can't they just enjoy. Way the moment, you know, and there's been this huge shift. Can you talk a little bit about your perception of that shift? Well, first of all, I want to address the challenges you're having to making photographs in your class, and you just want to be respectful and and that's great. And I think that if I were in your shoes, I would just ask people say, is there anyone here that that wouldn't want to be in a picture? If I got the inspiration, I just the class looked like a masterpiece, and I just wanted to make one photograph of it, because it's so beautiful. And if there's someone that just doesn't want to be in it, please let me know, and I will respect that. And most of the time, no, this is what they say every time I go into a prison, you know, because somebody might not want to be in a photograph, just because, if they're just not in the mood for that, or maybe they don't, for me, in my situation, is maybe somebody they don't want to be seen by certain by or they're it'll endanger their lives. So I think you'll have a much better chance at having 100% rate success rate with it. It's your vibration. You know, you come in with like, I'm just celebrating. I love you so much that I just have to make a photograph of you. Yes, that's what we're doing when we when we when we're we're paying attention and we're reflecting back to people that they're worthy of being seen, that they're beautiful, that they're that they're superstars, you know. And good point. That's why, like in the prison, they love to be photographed. Can you talk a little Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I don't know if everyone listening has had a chance yet to look at okay, we'll go back to that, but I'll let you finish. Yeah, I'm not an expert on on your question about how the world has changed and everything you know, I know. I'm just as much trying to understand it and get used to the just living with it and seeing the the goodness of it, and then once in a while, just being like, Ah, this is disgusting. You know, it's all, it's all. It's all so new to us, and it's here to stay. Yes, yes. Great point. I love that perspective. Great perspective. Yeah, that, and that's the other reason why I teach photography is because it is here to stay. It's It's as if the the phone is part of our skin, and we might as well learn how to use it mindfully and masterfully. Excellent, yes, yeah, because and how good for teenagers that come across this message nowadays like to actually contemplate mastery and mindfulness in relation to their ability to communicate their lives through through, through the apps and through the through the through the lens. Amazing Robert. Well, cool man, you're hitting some my cylinders are firing. You got to go. You got to tell me a little bit about your prison photos, because I well everybody, you have to go look at Robert's Instagram. Can you tell me your Instagram handle so I don't mess it up. Robert. Robert Sterman. Robert Sterman, you are m a n, as easy as it gets. There you go. Go look at Robert's photos. Check out some of the recent ones you posted of the prisoners practicing yoga and meditation. Can you tell me a little bit about how this project came to life about just over a decade ago? I was invited in my very close friend was a psychologist at a California prison, and the warden started a yoga program, and she asked if I would like to photograph it. So I did. I was very apprehensive at first, because I didn't know why I was I didn't it was so long ago, is before I knew that how important that was and what I was really stepping into. And so I photographed it, and then I had a meeting with the warden. Warden Coco Salinas and we talked about many things afterward, but one of the things that would ultimately inspire my entire career was she said I noticed that the guys who do the yoga and meditation make better choices. So I talked about simplicity before. I mean, that sentence alone is enough to inspire me to go all over the world and photograph anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, all with this desire to become better at being human. And so from there, I prison yoga project took notice of my work, and they asked if I would go into certain prisons with them, and it just grew. It started to grow so I aligned myself with them, and they also realized how important images are to to not just tell, tell a story, but also, like, make it a reality, like, you know, with and that's one of the themes of my work. One of the behind it is, I want to take an idea, like police officers practicing yoga, because it's a reality. There are police office officers practicing yoga and meditation and doing their best. And I want to focus on that and reflect that back and make photographs of it so that it ultimately, at first it's a little shocking, like, Oh, what are they doing? Or, Oh, do prisoners deserve yoga? I mean, that was the first thing that people would write about in articles, like, do they deserve yoga? And it was controversial at first, and now it's like, of course, they do. And I believe that photographs help create that reality and create a new normal, like when I first started making photographs of people in mil in the military, it's like, Oh, that is such a contradiction. And that's you know. But over time, people are realized that if we really want evolution, then you want everyone to do something good. You want your worst enemies to to practice yoga and meditation. I mean, how narrow minded can we be that we just would would say not to you. You want everyone to do that. Wow. The Most Evil people on the planet pray for them to do yoga. You know what? I mean? Yes, oh my gosh. I mean that is Rev, that is revolutionary or evolutionarily minded. You're absolutely right. Robert, that is such an interesting perspective. The one that you first brought up that your reaction you received was, well, do they even deserve yoga? I guess the feeling is that I've I think that isn't the purpose of prison for true rehabilitation. But then I suppose if you have a lot of anger toward your perpetrator, you might respond with more anger and hatred. But like, I think you're pointing to some of the sim, the simple truth of learning forgiveness and how powerful forgiveness is in the healing process. So to now build the connection between your craft and your passion and zeal for life into transforming the way we see the world that's next level. You're taking it to the next level. That's so cool. I'm inspired. Yeah, that is really amazing. And I would think that the prison environment, like from from your perspective, or if you said to me, Hey, Todd, do you want to come with me tomorrow to the prison and photograph with me? I would be nervous, I would be intimidated. I mean, that's a that would take some guts to override that initial trepidation that could come from. This is a new environment. How am I going to be received? And, you know, and what am I doing? But I think because you have your why in place, like it's You seem very clear about why you're doing it now that that is powerful, and I could see where, then you would just not even look back at this phase, like, No, I know what I'm doing. I'm going forward. Yeah, I'm going to continue my journey here. Yeah. And I cherish that, well, I cherish everyone that I have the opportunity to work with, but I'd say that I have a real, real soft spot for for people in prison that have the courage, the desire, the sincerity to step into, you know, it's, I mean, yoga is like sissy. War, you know? I mean, that's what it used to be, you know, but until, like, some of the tough guys try it and realize that holding a vashistasana is, like, the hardest thing in the war, yes, I know. And that's what I thought was so cool about Liz, like being an F 18 fighter pilot and hearing her stories about, you know, her yoga journey, and you know, and you're right, there might be people, there are, there are, and quite possibly, potentially, people that are thinking that is a sissy sport. I don't want my military member. I don't want the people protecting me doing yoga, because then they're not going to be tough enough to defend me in the in the time of need. But I like what you're doing with shifting that focus over to no these are people too. They need clarity of mind as well, and through clarity of mind, they will improve in their job ability. But I like the fact that with all the turmoil that we're undergoing in relation to people's relationship to appreciation for military and police personnel, of which I am a huge supporter of and I believe strongly that we need a police force and that we should take good care of them, is that you're right, like bringing that humanity back in, which could dissolve the anger and frustration that exists with the bad stuff that happens. And I know that could be a heavy subject, but, but I like what you're doing, and I think you're you're you're approaching it from an angle where we can just gradually ease our way in, because that seems to be like whenever we want to learn something new, if we just, if it's too forceful on us, it's hard, but if it's a gradual sort of introduction, it's a beautiful thing, you know, it's like, right? Like in a field of weeds, there might be, then comes a flower, and then eventually a whole field of flowers, and that's what I try to look for, is that one flower and then water it by making photographs of it and celebrating it. And what it does is it also it gives the viewer permission to become that as well. And photographs are so powerful, because when I started to make the photographs of the military, everyone would start using it as their a picture to advertise trauma informed yoga, because soldiers need, I mean, they need yoga right when they enlist, to prepare for the trauma that they are destined to acquire. Well, said, yeah. Great point. Great point. Now you've had the opportunity to travel the world, and, you know, maybe somebody who doesn't have that opportunity yet is challenged by that, maybe from the financial side, or just even being, you know, letting their, maybe their family members, don't encourage them or whatever reason. And not everybody wants to travel or needs to travel, but I'm gathering you've gained some inspiration. Can you share, like, um, what? What's the was the photos that you produced recently on Instagram that I saw of your Cuba trip? Was that trip of recent or is that something that something that you did a while ago and then you just been processing the imagery? Yeah, no, that's the thing is, if you people ask me that all the time, no, that's from though, that that series was from 2016 nice, alright, so or 2017 I don't know one of those, but that's the thing is, is I don't believe that. Back to your the way we've evolved into, like everything has to be now new, yeah, no, and then we discredit and throw away the past, like I got to be on a new skyscraper doing a dancer Bose China, because the one in whatever is old news in Singapore is old news. So I just think that that's, that's the culture that we're that you were addressing before is that just the it's just so fast and yes, and without thought and whatever, whatever happened has to be that that day is the only like it has a lot. I, you know, I come from a perspective of the historical like the history of art. You know, I'm an artist, and that's not the way. I'm not I'm going to live. I'm not going to buy into the mentality of and that's the three second movies. Yes, yes, I'm just not going to go there. I understand. Do you need to edit everything? Or do you sometimes give yourself the exercise? Like yesterday, I was speaking with an artist that came into class, and she teaches fine art painting around the world. And she after class, I said, Well, what are you gonna do today? And she's like, well, you know, actually, I'm taking a course myself. And she's like, because I'm always teaching, and if I can study from somebody else, it really helps me to become a better teacher. And I said, Well, I agree 100% you always got to constantly be taking classes and courses and learning. And she's like, Yeah, the focus of this painting class is that I have only 20 minutes to create an image, you know, to paint something, and I get so in my head about composition and all these different elements that it can take me days, weeks, months, years to finish a painting. And in relation to your How do you navigate spontaneity and this history of all these ideas that you have about what makes a good photo? Can you speak a little bit about how you balance these potentially seemingly opposites? But maybe they're not. What do you think? Well, as far as editing is concerned, yeah, editing versus just snap, go like snap, pick, send, like true. Well, in the past, we always needed a vehicle to get from the camera to a print and so I was conditioned to just always use since the invention of the computer and digital photography, use Photoshop as my Vehicle, whether I did a lot or not. My philosophy behind it is, don't overdo it, and which I've done a lot in the past, I've overdone it because we were bombarded with so many inventions at first, I try to get everything right in the camera. And then, of course, you know, I might boost the shadows and and add a little more saturation and vibrancy, a tiny bit of texture, basic stuff, just to but I love that idea of of not doing anything. It's rare that I could do that. But I also know that tiny, it's by language, you know, so tiny little shifts are going to bring a photograph to a potential that I like and but we, I, there used to be a an assignment that my first photography teacher gave me, and that was to load up the camera, and you're only allowed to make one. It was a two and a quarter camera, so there was only one piece of film in there, and you had a whole day, you could only do one. So nice, yeah, you had to, really, at 830 in the morning, you only get one. Oh, I like it. That sounds like a fun challenge. Yeah, with editing, it's just know when to stop. And it's the same thing for a painter, yeah, you know, you paint, and then you a painter has to know when to stop, yep, yep. That's cool. You get a chance to interact with yoga practitioners, meditation practitioners all over the world, and is there anything of late, and this could be in your local California backyard, is there anything of late that you've come across, that you've that that you could share with us? That's that you thought how cool that they're doing, that that that's it doesn't have to necessarily be new or different. But have you come across like a new and like a a new yoga thing or or met somebody that's doing something that just really blew your mind, that seems so unique and interesting? Well, I about two years ago. I adopted a dog named Otis, who's an animal testing survivor. And so what that means is he was used in a laboratory. He was raised to be tested on with all the things from windex to Clorox docs to the laundry detergents and pharmaceuticals and brain mapping and stimulation and just tons of things that were that they use on animals. I know the statistic. There's over 65,000 dogs in captivity being tested on right now in the United States alone. So what that did was that led me to raising awareness with him about it, so that people could know that this was going on and that we're not in the dark ages. We have science to to test all this in a in a very kind, gentler manner, and we've already done all the tests. So here he comes. So that led me to an organization. One day, I was photographing with prison yoga project, and I saw a van outside of the prison that had dogs on the on the side, so they would bring dogs into the prisons, dogs that would normally were destined to be euthanized. They would take those dogs off a death row and bring them into the dog program in the prisons, and they would rehabilitate each other. Like, true. Like, I don't know about you, but if I could have one thing in a prison, I think I would say I would choose a dog. Yeah, so these people heal from this, and the dogs become incredible dogs, and they're great trainers. So I got involved with that program to photograph what's going on in prisons with the dogs. And just because, as I've done in the past, as I like to take an idea, and then make powerful photographs that people can feel, and then build that idea like what we were speaking of before, and that's, that's one of the most recent things that blew my mind of the possibility of So much goodness that occurs through a program like that great answer. I have not heard of that, and that is so cool. Taking what potentially could seem like one problem over here, another problem over there, and now finding a solution for both. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And the guys that I've met that are in the program, I haven't photographed the women yet, but the guys that I've met were, I mean, they're so devoted, and they're the best trainers, and when they get out of prison, there's organizations that set up shelters so that they can work at the shelters and run the shelters and train the dogs there, and then get the dogs ready to go into the prisons. And there's just, there's so much work that needs to be done. But these guys that serve 25 to 30 years, I go there with my guy every week, just to because I want him to socialize with other dogs, because he's had such a traumatic past. So every week I go there, and I get to hang out with these men who served 2530 years in prison, and then were were let go early because so much healing occurred through their engagement with the dog training programs. Wow, that is amazing. I had not heard of that. Yeah, it's remarkable, and you're right then that creates a job opportunity, a a valuable asset in society, because you've learned how to work with the in a sense, the the inmates are rehabbing the dogs. And then obviously that begs the question, if the dogs are actually rehabbing they're rehabbing each other, because you're loving one another. Such a win, win. Holy cow, Robert, that is that's incredible. And would you say, I, you know, it's funny, because my daughter was like, you know, during 2020, I want a dog. I want a dog. I want a dog. And and I, I resisted and resisted and resisted, and then she won, and we got a dog. And now I'm so, you know, you hear about this with everybody. It's like. Now I'm just like, dog crazy, and all I want to do is, like, take care of my dog and how much, how much, like, rehab she's done for me. And you're right, that's amazing. So I'm curious, though, just more on a very personal level with Otis. And obviously, if Otis underwent that trauma, all this, all that crazy trauma, and I can't imagine, like, my how my dog would handle? I don't think she would do well if she was tested on every day, all day. Do you feel like, do you still have to be careful? Or, do you, are you able to read signals from him that he might be having a little bit of post traumatic stress? Or is, you know, what? How does that go? I mean, other certain, does he still suffer? You know, it's, this is a very, very deep topic, because and it all ties in with with yoga and Ahimsa and and Buddhism and learning how to accept The horrific nature of humanity, the potential of humanity and yeah, I mean, there's a couple triggers, the sounds of a train that can trigger a very deep haunting. How from him. So I avoid the train. We have one very close, but I will take the long way, constantly, and we will never walk over the track or so, that's one, and I think it's because of the frequency. Because he had severe animal testing. He was they did brain mapping on him, and when they found him, when they rescued him, there were holes in his head and and he really went through it. And Peter just did a very, a beautiful feature on him. Wow, it's so triumphant for us as we make use of his life so but what it's, you know, on a deeper level, what it's caused me to really have to work with is, is finding a way to experience that kind of empathy in the most responsible way that I can like I'm learning. I'm really I'm struggling, you know, and I want to learn this, because it's here for me to learn millions of other people have had learned in the past, but I don't quite know how yet, to to deal with how much suffering I am aware of now, to to really go forward, and you know, it's, it's, it definitely shifted my behavior, like I can't compartmentalize anymore and contribute to to the suffering, like I can only Buy cruelty free products. There's no way. Oh, it's okay. Or in the past, you know, or like, I'm, I, I'm a plant based, I'm on a plant based diet, and it's a joy to me live that way. And there's, there's just no way I could after seeing, you know, calves ripped away from their mothers, and the mother crying and resisting, and there's no way to see that and feel it and really engage with that in an honest way and then compartmentalize and say, Oh, but it's just a piece of pizza. You know? Yeah, wow. Well, Said, I mean, that's the challenge of opening up our hearts and being empathetic. I think, you know, I agree with you, hitting that point where there's a tipping point of like, No, I'm actually going to do something about this. Now, been watching it long enough, I've been whatever, reacting in this way, that way, maybe nervous about speaking out or and I like, but I appreciate what you're doing, though, because it sounds like you're living it versus like, I mean, we're speaking about it, and you might be very maybe you are an advocate. Maybe you are standing out on the soapbox on the corner, and I don't know what you do, but I feel like by living it like what you're you know, and then even just opening up your awareness to being willing to walk into prisons on a regular basis, and you're going and visiting regularly with Otis so that you can interact with these guys and build a relationship with them, and the amount of rehabilitation that that's doing for them, I'm gathering it has to, because it just feels that way, from listening to it has to be having a positive effect. And your images are have, are having a positive effect on me. Every time I see your images, I just feel moved. I I think you're, you've, you've, you've, figured. Out how to translate your your quest, your desire to transform the world through your imagery. And I don't know that everybody's exceeded that succeeds at that. I like to think maybe I could succeed. Actually, I'm taking your course now, after talking y'all like, that's it. I gotta. I gotta get better. I want to get better. It's not that I have to get I want to. I want to express myself more through that, through that medium and or other, or just appreciation for life. It's so cool. Have you been able to do that? But I really like hearing the deeper side of what you're going or what you're experiencing, and I love that you brought up, Otis, thank you for bringing up that story, because that's so powerful. That's cool, man, yeah, as far as soapbox, I've always been very that right now that that is the most I've ever spoken about my process of what it means to to not eat animal products. Like, what does that mean? Like, that's the first because we live in a world where we've been so conditioned and to even engage in a conversation with anyone. Like, there's just, it's just, I don't have the bandwidth to to negotiate it, and so I, I do my best to avoid that, because everyone wants to speak out and give their reasons why they do this or that. And I it's, that's, that's their business. And I don't feel like it. It's, I mean, maybe if I was really responsible, I'd be on the soapbox screaming. But it doesn't do anything. It just makes like when people go and spray Stonehenge, you know, I mean, for the most part, people are just like, Oh, they're crazy, you know? They don't remember that it's to protest oil and the how the planet is about to, you know, really needs our attention, like most people, 99% are just like those people are out of their minds and rude. So there's better ways. I you know, they could do like, something artistic could occur that really grabs the attention of the masses and opens people's hearts, rather than Yeah, so that, I think that example works, yeah, uh, spraying throwing chalk, or Whatever it was, on Stonehenge, yes, I understand. Yeah, they're crying. They want to. They know that the planet needs help, but it's just that method isn't it'll go ignored. Yeah, I hear you. There's a fine balance, isn't there, between trying to get people to listen and the method of delivering the message, delivering the message, and then how to get the message to get delivered, does it? Does the delivery actually land? Does the delivery misland? You know, that's that's a great question, and finding the best way, but I think through a medium like art, and then obviously you've chosen photography, but art is on so many different levels. And I love the fact that you recognized early on the artistic element of yoga, and that a yoga pose, potentially is an art form, or it is an art form. It's an expression. And art is expression. So if we express it through a pose, and then just even starting to appreciate that and then investigate, like, well, how it what kind of art Am I expressing right now? You know, like, because I might just be moving through this whole routine and not even be connecting, but at the same time, I guess we're probably connecting to the level that we need to connect because we can't. I sometimes think I don't want to create judgment about is one person connecting enough or not, right? Like, because that doesn't create a fun space, but I like that you're at least bringing some attention to this detail, like, let's really look at it. And how can we get creative about this? It's beautiful. Robert, you've come across so many yoga styles, teachers, meditation traditions do how do you synthesize all this into your own practice. Have you come across so much at this point that it's just a it's a blend of everything? Or are you systematic in a specific technique or method in your own personal practice? Boy, there is. So much information. I know where to even pick in. Just pick in anywhere on this, because anything you have to say, I mean, I'm loving this conversation, so feel free to direct it this. I'm responding to what you just said. Oh, thank you so much information everywhere that I will be honest. I I see it all, I try to take it all in on the peripheral, and just take what, what works. I mean, it's a new technique, and that's what Alan finger has been teaching me. More is to to just, just be a genius, happen to genius consciousness and be open to everything and love it. But I, I don't like all the meditation and different styles of I'm definitely not a yoga scholar at all, and it's it's only through time that I'm learning more about because I've never done a teacher training and but I I feel like I'm learning yoga through self discovery, through my own questions and trying to process my emotions and being responsible with my own life, but and then little things that people have told me along the way, like someone once said When I was doing things that were destructive to me, like maybe in a relationship, or whatever it was she's she used the term crimes against wisdom, which she is a yoga scholar, and so I think it's called, You're going to know Prady Dasha, one of those from the sutras and and just that thought primes against my own wisdom, like for me, that that's Beautiful for the rest of my life. Yeah, so, so when I so to answer your question with all the things I've seen, it's I'm just interested in human beings trying to be better at being human, and however they get there doing it. That's great. Yeah, good answer. I'm still kind of just mulling on interpreting crimes against my own wisdom, right? Like, like, what does that mean? Whatever. Where have I How have I committed crime against my wisdom? I guess I interpret that as not where I work, where I undermined my wisdom. I undermined it. I had in some intuition or feeling that I wanted to go with, and I second guessed it, and therefore I didn't allow for my genius to come to the table I or maybe I'm not recognizing that I have the potential for genius, or I'm not cultivating the idea that I, that I that I'm good enough to be genius. Do I love myself enough? Maybe that's a crime against my own wisdom, not loving myself enough. What do you think? What have your mind going with that? Because, obviously, you've been thinking about it Well, I mean, on a very basic level, not doing your practice. Yeah? That's a you know, making an excuse is a crime against your own wisdom. Yeah? Good one, you know, yeah, smoking a cigarette, whatever, you know, whatever it is that a vice that someone might have, or, yeah, I see what you mean. Or going to, you know, watching a a very violent television show right before bed, when you've already decided that you're not supposed to do that, or it's better not to, and then you do it anyways. To me that that would represent crime against our own wisdom. Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Good example. I like where you took it. You took it to, like, the deepest, most evolutionary level. Thank you. I know I like that you brought, well, I like that you brought up Alan finger. I've never met him, but I've had so many people rave about their studies with him. And can you remind me is that it was his? Um? School in New York, was it? Is it? Ishta? Ishta? I, S, H, T, A, can you tell me, does that stand for something? Is that an acronym, or is that a word that can translate this style? No, I don't know. I yeah, I regret to say I don't know the I'll look into it. Yeah, and you've had a chance to practice with him. I have, um, every week I take a on Tuesday mornings, he does an online meditation, and I do that. But the way Alan came into my life, we were both presenting at a retreat at Kripalu, and we became friends and just talk so much, and because he's obsessed with photography, and he used to have a photography business when he lived in Los Angeles, so he's just always been a complete photography geek. And he noticed that technically I could improve. He loved my work, but he knew that I was that punk rocker type of God that I described earlier, even though I was way more advanced than from the beginning stages. But still, there were some loose ends, and he pestered me for years to get this camera and do this and do that. And I I just was, I loved him, but I just he drove me crazy. And I finally, I said, I said, Alan, if I get this and I do this, I said, we you're going to be available 24 hours in case something goes wrong. Yes, yes, it's like to so I did it and and then I studied, like, 1000 hours on YouTube and talking to him and going over it and figuring stuff out, really advancing my craft, because he was such a pain in the ass. And so I would call him during a shoot because something wasn't working in the camera. I'd be like, god damn it, and I'd be and so he'd answer the phone, and I'd be, he knew I was so mad, and he screwed up my entire life, and he'd be like, Oh, robs, I've been waiting for this call. That's so awesome. That's hilarious. That's great, man. But and I'm gathering you're thankful, though, for for him making being a pain in the butt about it, right? Like you're just Robbie. It's, it's gonna be uncomfortable. And now look at the images. Oh, they're much better. They're they're absolutely much. He took me. He moved me from using a regular sl into mirrorless technology and just being, I still argue with him about a few things, but, you know, yeah, yeah, he's amazing. He worked on me, he taught me. I guess that's the only way he knew how he could get through to me with yoga, was to come in through photography. And they're like, Look, if he was right about this, he's gotta be right about that, all right, I surrender. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, so cool to hear stories about him. I've only heard wonderful stuff, and this just backs it up. Even takes it another drive down to Boca and just take his Tuesday morning class, be a guest. Oh, man, I'm doing it now. I didn't even know he was that close. I have someone like that in my backyard. Yeah, he's right there. Well, I will, maybe I'll, I'll joke around with him a little bit about what camera should I get when I show up? Maybe he'll be your next guest on the podcast. Oh my gosh. Well, that'd be a huge honor, but it's a huge honor to have you right now. Robert, I I really this has been such a just a great experience. And I just looked over at the clock and went, Oh my gosh, we've already been on past an hour. So I just can't tell you how much, how thankful I am. I really enjoyed this. I love your view of life. I love the way you're expressing it. I just feel honored. And and, and thank you for being so gracious upon my request for you to be on the show and and it's just been a real pleasure. And I can't wait to publish this, and for everybody to hear this, and I just can't wait to see what more art you create and and to see some just where you're where your career and your your whole life journey continues to go. I love the work that you're doing with Otis. I love just envisioning you deciding not to take the tracks in the long way, like that's such a, that's a beautiful image, right there. I want to get a picture of you walk and notice away from the train, I don't know, because that's a, that's a powerful message, you know, to actually respect our fellow beings and to honor them and take the longer road, just so that they can have a little bit of an easier journey. That's beautiful man, that's amazing. So thank you, and I can't wait to meet you in person. I hope I have the opportunity to one day be photographed by you. I would be, I would be that's going to be a dream come true. So please, next time you're in Florida, or next time I have family in California, when I come out to visit them, I'm going to look you up, and hopefully won't mind me dropping by. And before you cut the power, give me a chance to say something, please. So it's an honor. Thank you so much. No, seriously, you really are a great podcaster, because there's such a authentic interest that you have in people, and it comes through, and you bring out the best in people. And I can only imagine that that's why you've been a studio owner for 17 years and been, you know, teaching for so long is because you have that quality that really is the the basic, the foundation of photography is reflecting back people's light. And so the honor is mine. Thank you. Thank you. Native yoga. Toddcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you like this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com, and hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Rate it and review and join us next time you.