Michael Johnson ~ Discovering the Timeless "Now" in Yoga Practice

Michael Johnson is a prominent yoga and philosophy instructor based in Asheville, North Carolina. He is the founder of Clear Light Yoga and a respected teacher at both the Asheville Yoga Center and the Ayurvedic Institute. With over 20 years of experience, Michael specializes in yoga philosophy, Sanskrit, and meditation. Through his 200-hour yoga philosophy teacher training program, Michael inspires students to delve deep into the ancient texts and principles of yoga, making these complex ideas accessible and applicable to modern life.

Visit Michael on his website: https://www.clearlightyoga.com/

Key Takeaways:

• The Essence of Yoga: Yoga is about controlling the mental activities to avoid being controlled by them. This is a path to self-control and understanding one's true nature.
• Philosophical Integration: Understanding Sanskrit and the Yoga Sutras is crucial to grasping yoga philosophy. Different translations can lead to varied interpretations and levels of understanding.
• Non-Theistic Bhakti: Bhakti Yoga, traditionally theistic, can also be practiced in a non-theistic manner, focusing on devotion to ideals rather than deities.
• Practical Application: Michael shares real-life applications of yoga philosophy, from daily interpersonal interactions to handling extreme situations like cyber threats.

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Chapters

• 32:48 Yoga Philosophy and Buddhism
• 44:58 Self-Control and Egotism in Yoga
• 48:36 Teaching Yoga Philosophy
• 1:04:03 Non-Dogmatic Philosophy

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. And today I bring to you Michael Johnson. Michael has a website clearlightyoga.com Check him out, go have a look. The link is in the description. And also follow him on Instagram@michaeljohnsonyoga. He offers a 200 hour yoga philosophy teacher training, and he teaches Sanskrit! You can study with him, he teaches one on one. You can study philosophy, you can become a yoga philosophy teacher. If you don't think that's possible, I think you're going to hear and feel that it is. And I had such an incredible conversation I learned so much. And I want to encourage you as you listen, listen from beginning all the way to the end. And don't worry if you don't understand or grasp every concept that he brings up. But I feel he does a fantastic job of being methodical and precise. And I promise you, you're gonna feel this level of austerity and focus and long term dedication that Michael is put into his yoga practice and his studying and philosophy and his teaching. I had a great time listening. I learned a lot. And I'm so glad you're here. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's begin. I'm delighted to have the opportunity to have Michael Johnson here joining me today on the podcast. Michael, I'm really excited to have this chance to meet and speak with you. How has your day been going so far? Have you have you been having a good day? What what sort of what side of the bed did you wake up on today? Today is off to a good start. There's always a challenge of so many things to do and not enough time to do them. Oh, yeah. Just focus on what I can do and try to get into a rhythm. And yeah, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Absolutely. You do reside in Asheville, North Carolina. Yes, that's correct. Nice. And I saw that you lead the philosophy, part of the teacher training at the studio in Asheville zetro. I offer many programs on yoga philosophy at the Asheville yoga center, and have been doing that for about 15 years. Nice. I also lead philosophy at the ARIA Vedic Institute and teach Sanskrit so that people can not only better understand the wisdom of ARIA Veda and the language that many of the greats such as Tanaka Sushruta, have recorded them in, but also to understand yoga philosophy in as clearly as possible as the yoga sutra. And after yoga, Deepika, we're all composed in Sanskrit. Wow. I mean, learning and studying Sanskrit is a big undertaking. How did you get introduced to Sanskrit language? And at what point did you decide, You know what? I'm going to study this I'm going to, I'm going to try to learn this. When did that happen for you? That was about 20 years ago, when I first learned about the yoga sutra. My introduction to yoga and a deep word was through Deepak Chopra. He came to Detroit, Michigan, where I was living at the time, and led us through a meditation that allowed me for the first time least in this lifetime, to be able to discern the seer and the scene and have the space to be able to navigate whatever came up and I got very interested in his books. I started reading a lot of his writing And often when he would talk like, at the audiobook for ageless body, timeless mind. And most of what he said, Just like went over my head. Yeah. So listen to the book like several times before I can start to understand him the speed that he wanted to talk. And eventually, I got his book every day and mortality. The audio version was something I listened to over and over again. And in the beginning, he described what a sutra was. It's a compact statement, that if you listened to it, it was like a seed. And it would reveal many potential understandings. It just said, and abide and see all of its potential. Nice. So you described the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, as the way that yoga was taught, each sutra was a seed, and that the practitioner would first memorize it. And then sit and meditation and contemplate meanings of each statement, how they all tied together. I, after that immediately went and bought my first copy of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. That was from Swami Satchidananda. And nice starting to memorize his translation. And I got a little sidetracked by his definition of yoga. Chitta Vritti Nirodha as yoga is the restraint of the mental modifications of the mind stuff. Yeah. Like, what does that even mean? Right off the bat like sutra number two, you you. You were you were just going whoa, whoa, what do I Where do I even go here? Yeah, I wrote his commentary. I even like met him. I went and studied at the such at Ananda ashram, and yoga Ville, Virginia for a month, I did their living yoga training program. Nice, had a very positive experience. But when I compared his translation of the yoga sutra, to a number of others, I was befuddled. Be memorizing this English translation. Because everyone's English translation of those four words, yoga, chitta, Vritti, nirodha is different. Yes. And not just in a trivial surface way. But very different. They, they all lead in very different paths. Yeah. So that's what eventually led me to be more interested in Sanskrit language, the language the text was written. I eventually ended up studying with a comparative religion professor named Brian Kelly Smith. He eventually became a monk and was given the monks named Marut. And a lot of his students called him Lama route. And he convinced me that if you want to understand the philosophy of the yoga sutra, you have to learn the language of his composed him. And he gave me the confidence that I could do it. He was like a Columbia University professor and University of California, Riverside professor, and he just inspired me to eventually learn the language. Wow, this struggled with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. My whole life. I was diagnosed when I was like, three. My mom never gave me medication. But I learned I could self medicate with coffee. Interesting teen years helped me concentrate. Yeah. But yoga was a game changer. The ability to use my breath and not ignore but inhabit my body. And to be able to concentrate without the use of coffee or outside sources was super helpful. Yes. I've always had a lot of learning disabilities. Regarding that, and I never learned Sanskrit in a organized way. Like, you go to academic institution. They'll teach you sounds good, like the first week. Okay, learn the Devanagari alphabet. Second week, we'll do all the combinations and like, the trajectory of those courses are usually like half the class drops out by week two. Yeah. That's a huge, just, yeah, the end of the course there's a handful of people left, but they know Sanskrit, and that seems to be making Sanskrit more elite and inaccessible. So though it's taken me a lot longer to learn Sanskrit than most people. My motivation has been to understand yoga that's healing practice that I've found so helpful, that I think could be helpful to a lot more people. So one of the ways that I teach Sanskrit at the ARIA Vedic Institute is through the practice of yoga. Cool. And yoga is, however, you look at the many translations of yoga Chitta Vritti. nirodha, has, essentially a methodology of developing self control. So if you look at the first three sutras are the first four switches in the yoga sutra, the first sutra is auto yoga and Shazam. Now, yoga is explained, or the exposition of yoga is being made. And it's a somewhat of a trivial way that many texts begin. So in all the schools of South Asian or Indian philosophy, they say, Otter, this otter that the attorney is otter, Sonka, and they're just introducing the topic. But when the yoga sutra says oughta, yoga and Shazam, it might mean something a bit different. If you go deeper into the text, the word now is investigated with Samadhi. To me, and not just the trivial now this, but now. Yes, in a very profound way. So I include that to being an important part of the introduction. We have an ordinary view of time conventional view of time, it's very linear and very much wrapped into our human experience. But even physicists can step outside of that like Einstein, or Niels Bohr and start to see timelessness or the the possibilities of imaginary time or limitless time. And I think that the author may have implied that when he opened the text like that, so with that in mind, yoga chitta vritti nirodha. The word yoga is the subject that's being spoken of. And when you combine that with chitta, which is typically meant to be the mind, yoga turns to yoga Chitta due to Sanskrit grammar rule called Sunday, and then vert de is activity. So it comes from the verb root verb, which means to turn. And the activities of the mind are later explained in the text. But the word no Rhoda is a very interesting word that one can take in many different directions. The sutra style of composition was brilliant in the sense that it took huge bodies of understanding and compress them. So that could be memorized and then understood. But often multiple layers were implied by the author. So the fact that he is the word in the road to Ha, which in Buddhist hybrid Sanskrit means a cessation. But in other texts, the word and rota ha might mean govern, or control. And those are paradoxical. Because logically, they don't necessarily line up in every way that one might want them to. So the translation of Yogesh to the routine Rhoda by the words alone, if you go to a dictionary, and just like I like that word, like that word, make a sentence can come up with something that might make a lot of sense to the translator, but not necessarily convey what's being spoken of in the text. And this style of translation is very common. And when you try to take your, your understanding, and then thread it through the rest of the text, and have it explained all of the information and navigate the controversies, then you start to see how some translations fare better than others. So a lot of people will translate yoga chitta vritti nirodha as yoga is the cessation of mental activities and that can allow one to assume that the mind is the active part, and consciousness Purusha your consciousness is inactive and timeless. And for a lot of people that that takes them to this place where they return home, they abide in their their true form, which they believe is pure consciousness. Limitless and that said the next two sutras offers a little bit more clarity on that. And another way to translate that would be yoga chitta vritti nirodha Yoga is controlling the mental activities. And this suggests that parotia isn't independently available to, to see or understand, but actually requires mental activities in order to have that experience of knowing and being. And if you understand the context of the philosophical schools that were around at that time, the way that we know them today, like the the six major schools of India, Vedanta, which has many branches and different persuasions, sanchia, which is another school that Vedic friendly, but also very materialist, reductionist, and very scientific. But yeah, like the disagreements between sanchia and Vedanta is enough to keep a person busy for the rest of their life. But if you take into consideration that this text may have actually been written for Buddhists, or people who had a sympathy for Buddhism, but we're looking for something more, or just something to contrast that or parallax, that with, then you know, both are worth considering, either yoga is controlling the mental activities, rather than being controlled by them, or yoga is the cessation of mental activities, which arguably, could give you the space to stop reacting to them. And then to engage in them with more integrity. So both are, are worth considering, and attempting to please all these schools, was an impossible task. But listening to them, and attempting to offer a presentation of developing self control that could appeal to many of them, is I think, what Patanjali was doing. It's fascinating. It's so fascinating. I remember, my first interaction with the rota ha was from the angle of the definition of cessation. So this idea had this, this thought, or this idea that Kay yoga, when I get good at yoga, if I achieve yoga, or I make some progress on the path that my thoughts will cease. And then I heard someone give the exposition on or the idea that translation that neuro Doha could mean, like you said, control or like to yoke or to like, harness the energy of, and that potentially, then, if somebody is feeling like, I'm practicing yoga, and I constantly have thoughts, and my thoughts never stopped, so maybe I'm not progressing on the path of yoga. But then when I heard the idea that you're presenting that, instead of stopping the thoughts that if you can harness the thoughts, or, you know, change your thinking, or be aware of your thinking even that then maybe one feels that they're having some progress on the path of yoga, because the thoughts are still there. But now I can almost interact with the thoughts and it doesn't feel so daunting and frustrating when my mind just keeps going and going and going. So I love how like what you're bringing attention to the this, this subtle shift of the definition of that word, really has a different sort of impact. And I liked that you're also presenting the fact that it's worth investigating all of these different possibilities to see how we can now utilize this in our own life in your in your own experience in relation to the variation between cessation and or the harnessing of what how does your practice tend to unfold or your your outlook on life unfold in relation to that, that awareness or understanding? Well, one of the ways that I can make better sense of yoga and the yoga sutra, not only with the rest of the tax, but with other texts, like the cocktail upon a shot, presents yoga as self control. It's basically taking the reins of the mind and steering the emotions rather than just being taken for a ride. It's choosing to do the right thing sria rather than what is most pleasant, right, yeah. And if you look at the Bhagavad Gita as another presentation of yoga, Krishna is the charioteer holding on to the reins. The body is the chariot the horses are the motions and the passengers the south and spoke Krishna being the lord of time and space and be on Beyond our conventional understanding, he does make a case for devotion to right action, doing what is right even when it's not pleasant. And he in the 17th chapter, I think, states that maybe it's the 18th chapter, that there's three kinds of happiness. There's one where you abide in your own form, and you're not attached outcomes. And you do the right thing. And it might be like poison at first, but it becomes nectar. So that's how you describe sattva. And then rajas is like where you're attached to outcomes, you're acting for the sake of something, and that might be like nectar at first, but eventually turns to poison. And then you scribes, Thomas says, You're just diluted in the beginning, looted in the end, was in the beginning. And he also describes that being attached to sanfur is like, the, the puzzle that we need to solve. As a moral ethical theory in the Bhagavad Gita is unique, a lot of academics and philosophers have tried to frame the Bhagavad Gita in terms of what they know, and what they believe and what they understand. And in the West, we have moral ethical theories that are common to us. And many have foisted their beliefs and opinions on the Gita and read it through that lens and, and get a certain result. I'm currently studying with philosophers that are attempting to decolonize yoga to decolonize yoga from not just the British occupation, and all that happened that brought yoga to the West in a certain way, but even decolonizing it from the Mughal Empire, and some of the previous occupations that have occurred and have distorted yoga, in one way or another. That's fascinating, in that, you know, that's a project that may never be completed, but one can learn some valuable things and attempting to do so. And one of the things that I found really helpful is that in the Bhagavad Gita, as well as the Katroo, upon a shot in the yoga sutra, there's a meta ethical theory being presented there that we don't find in the West, a meta ethical, did you say? Yeah, so it's looking at ethics from a distance. The ethics of ethics. Got it? Got it. One of the ways that we do that in the West is we tend to look at everything through the lens of virtue ethics, like a platonic Aristotelian way of understanding things where a good person, a good character determines what right action is. And another to contrast that would be consequentialism, or utilitarianism, where no, that's actually the good outcome that determines right action. And the beginning of the first chapter of the Bhagavad Gita Arjuna is just expressing how both of those fail. Even if I win this war, I will not be a good person and other people's eyes or even my own. And how can that be right? And even if I win this war, I'll have to kill my family and destroy so many lives. How could that possibly be right? Another meta ethical theory in the West is deontology. It was championed by Immanuel Kant, but there are many examples of it and this is basically the right argument justifies a good action. And this is similar to what Krishna starts offering Arjuna with with Karma Yoga, when he basically says, act without being attached to comps, you have every right to act, but not to the actions. And, you know, deontological way of solving moral dilemmas is, well I'm just gonna, you know, stick to this rule or to this ideal that feels right. And gonna ride that up no matter what. And this can be super helpful and overcoming the weaknesses of the first two, I mentioned. Virtue ethics consequentialism are both outcome driven, all about the whereas the ontology, it's more about the process. How you are said of treating people as a means to an end, treat people as ends and that can that one Rule can transform all of your relationships. And, as I said, has its merit. However, that's not where Krishna stops in the Bhagavad Gita. Arjuna is not satisfied with Karma Yoga, he has more more questions about it. And he eventually ends up presenting bhakti yoga. So bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion. And in the Bhagavad Gita bhakti is devotion to Krishna as the Lord of time and space, who is Brahman, who is everywhere in all things, and not exactly pantheism. Like we might have learned about it through Spinoza, but more like pantheism. Where, yes, Brahman is within all things, and is divine in its pure form, but some of the farms that it produces just not divine, like, you know, lying, cheating, murder and stuff like that. So the Bhagavad Gita is a very beautiful poem that has inspired many people. But philosophically, it's a little, these little to be desired to have a straightforward, non self contradicting argument as to what yoga is. I think the yoga sutra provides that it's the earliest known exposition of yoga philosophy, a darshana, you could say, that self consistent and consistent with experience. And in the Bhagavad Gita Ishwara is described in absences. Buddhists would have liked that, like the the Dharmakaya. Buddha, for example. And in relation to when you say that, so Ishwara, which maybe we could translate as God, anything you said, and then you said, there's the God in the shadows, so to speak, or like, like, like, I guess, in relation to nothingness, or emptiness, where you said the Buddhists would be appreciative of this idea of the Ishwara being? Yeah, hidden, so to speak, question. So each one, if you look up the word, many people will will see it as God. And you can see it referenced as Vishnu or Shiva in some cases, and all of the attributes that people associate with those things, but for the Buddhists at that time, they were notably non theistic, as were most Tonkin's. And by that time, I mean, like the the fourth century of the Common Era. And just to clarify for listener capacity here, we have the word theistic, atheistic and non theistic and to differentiate theism, belief in a god, a theism belief, there is no God. And then non theism is like, I prefer not to speak about it. Is that is that? Could that work as a translator? Maybe there isn't. I don't necessarily have a need for it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. But I like that you brought that word nontheistic. Because I don't think we hear that as often as either theism or atheism that there's another option. There's a third party here. We could also say there's a fourth option anti theism where people are trying to squash the the idea, but as far as the yoga sutra, let me back up the anti theism. So we're trying to squash said, How's that? How is an T and A, the difference? Like atheistic is that, you know, like, I don't subscribe to that view. We're anti theistic like not only do I not ascribe to that view, you shouldn't. I'm against it. I will spend my time and energy trying to convince you out of it. All right. I haven't even heard that. Thank you. All right. Thank you. All right. Sorry. Continue, please. Christopher Hitchens wrote a book God is not great. But that was the view that he's subscribed to Got it. Got it. Thank you. So back to the yoga sutra. The way that each WADA is described in the yoga sutra is the ideal for bhakti yoga. So bhakti yoga is devotion and devotion to this ideal of each one. You know, could mean Vishnu or some God that has a form. Many schools of Vedanta require that but it also opens the possibility the way that each was described in the yoga sutra, as devotion to this idea that doesn't have a form necessarily. And the absences aren't nothing. So emptiness and nothingness are sometimes considered synonyms. But the Buddhist went through great lengths to discern those two, so empty and is actually something, it's the presence of an absence. Like my hand right here, it seems that it's pretty solid and consistent, but it actually is empty of permanence. It was never wasn't always here won't always be here, and that's how it does exist. So the absence of permanence is something. And that idea is conveyed in the Yoga Sutras, the absence of clay shows the mental activities that control you, also called mental fluctuations. Some people translate CIT, devotee as mental fluctuations. And therefore Yoga is the cessation of mental fluctuation. And that that actually works. So you basically could also translate that as yoga is the cessation of mental afflictions. But the rest of the text doesn't describe to divinity as afflictions, says that it can be afflicted or afflicted. So that translation doesn't work as well got it. But the each what is described in the 24th Sutra is Glacia, karma de Prakash are farmers to pollution vitiation each. So the text itself says that each WADA is a pollution Association, the ideal of a person that is free of mental afflictions clashes, the afflicted actions that come when we're controlled by our mental activities, and we act so Raja, known as karma, karma causes rebirth in the cycle of suffering and attachment to outcomes the pocket, so the fruit of one's actions, as well as storing them in the karma Shi'a. So a shy he is how to describe them. And that's what happens whenever we're identified with our thoughts, instead of taking responsibility for shaping them. So each one is this idea of a person that's free of all that stuff. Just like the Dharmakaya Buddha, I understand, thank you for clarifying that. That was a good explanation. And you don't need to do anything to like, create the Dharmakaya Buddha, it's uncreated, it's unchanging, it's already perfect. You just need to devote yourself to approximating that ideal so that you too can be free of afflictions and afflicted actions or outcomes and identifying is the Dharma kya school and or philosophy in the same realm as the RT yoga or this idea that you already are enlightened, the, the attempt to achieve Samadhi is unnecessary. And so this almost like awakening to this is it. I'm already here, which is such a fat is that is that in that Dharmakaya school of thought, it certainly could be so Buddhism, like Vedanta, there's so many branches and strands, and Hatha Yoga is considered the highest yoga. And you can see really beautiful presentations of that. And Padma Sun bhava is work, which gave rise to the meanness school in Tibet, that brought us Zog Chen, the natural perfection. And their approach to practicing yoga is instead of start off at the beginning and work your way up to like the the end, start at the end. Okay, back to the beginning. Yeah. Start started enlightenment and and what was that was it what was the word you use the deontological without without it, like the ontology in reverse. Psychological is like, it's like yoga, in the sense that it's procedural and not outcome driven. That's right. God, it's more just the process experience not to get somewhere else or requires you don't already have Yes, but deontology as well as virtue ethics and consequentialism can all be predicted by bad actors and exploited to serve their not so great ends. And that's the situation that Arjuna finds himself and it's, the Kauravas have basically created the circumstances where whatever one of those three metaphysical theories they try, they're going to be exploited. And this fourth option, however, called bhakti, or yoga, synonyms for the same thing, yoga and bhakti philosophically are not two different things. They're one of the same. This is something that can't be as easily predicted or exploited by bad actors. So one can stand in their own form. And instead of reacting to someone that's trying to make you do something or get something out of you, you can choose to respond with integrity, and they can't take that away. So the bhakti, or yoga theory was something that Gandhi used in order to start his Satyagraha, nonviolent non cooperation, were to fight the British occupation. And Martin Luther King Jr. used that same meta ethical theory in civil rights. And it certainly has its place in this world, it might not be the only way that one can be are the best way for everyone. But it is a way that has notable benefits that people ought to be free to choose if they want. Can you give an example of a time recently where you with this information, consciously employed bhakti as a way of holding your integrity, and it could be something as superficial as the guy at the gas pump honked at me and yelled at me and said, hurry up. Or, I'm just kind of curious, a real life scenario where you've had to draw upon this and then choose to practice it, that could help make it applicable for our listener to potentially try the same technique themselves. When faced with this dilemma, I can offer you two examples. One would be like more every day type experiences. And another one might be unique to me, but we'll see. So anytime you have a relationship, and you're wanting to be in a harmonious state, with the other person, if you're not trying to change them, or get something out of them, you're just happy to be with them. You can through bhakti, yoga, you know, like, offer them your support, your love, your passion, and not be attached to whatever the outcome is. And that harmony is like, almost instantaneous. Good answer. I had one extreme situation where someone using cyberthreats, they threatened to hunt me down and kill me. I guess they didn't like my political views or whatever reason. Whoa. And that's it, like literally had somebody contact you and say, I'm coming for you. Because whatever reason, oh, my God. Well, it was indirectly they sent the message to someone else. But, you know, I asked all my friends. Yeah, like, you should take the threat seriously. So I went to the the authorities and did the whole deontological thing like, well, you know, who and the incident and, yeah, make sure that all of the procedures are done. And that's very unsatisfying. As we don't really have laws to protect people from cyber threats. And, but I did it anyways. And, you know, as far as the other when you're attached to a specific outcome, like feeling safe. Which, who doesn't want to feel sad? Yeah. When someone threatens to take that away from you, not just by ending your life, but he went on to threaten my family and so many things. Yeah, like, I was kind of left with this only other option of not being attached to an outcome. So instead of virtue ethics, or consequentialism, I have this other way of just Well, I can be here right now and abide in my own form. And that I can't control what this person does or doesn't do or so many things that are outside of me, I can actually choose how I think how I speak I act and not be attached to those outcomes. And I can abide a model form and this allowed me to, you know, allow my nervous system to process all the the defense mechanisms that got tangled in knots after that experience, and I'm still untangling it, but it allows me to be with myself just the way I am. Even though that isn't always the way it ought to be. If I can steer myself in that direction and not let someone else stop me, yeah, or steer me away. Oh, that's powerful. That's super powerful because that's coming down to our like will to survive is the word in the yoga sutras? Is it a Benny Vaishya? Am I in the right thread? What is the word that's usually on the right thread. So if any Vasia is often translated as fear of death, but if you look it up in any dictionary, none of them say that they say clinging, grasping. And in the context of the yoga sutra, it goes into some more elaborated detail. And like the 31st Sutra, the first chapter and in the second chapter, when it describes swaras, faki leadership will be smothered with hope and evasion, it's describing trauma it's describing a wise person might actually still carry trauma, or post traumatic stress disorder, as we call it now. Where even though they've had significant transformation through self control, and under most circumstances might behave quite principled. And rationally, when their defense mechanisms are triggered, then basically, there's a loss of self control. It's either the fight, flight freeze, or some combination of that. And then that still exists even in those who are wise. I think I read a commentary somewhere like most people seem to at least pretend to be enlightened. So you grab them by the ankles, and hang them from a 10 storey building. That's the big test. Yeah, in that context of any of Asia is listed as a glacier. So it's something that distracts us from the practice of yoga. And when you have a loss of self control, it isn't necessarily by choice. And I think that's something that everyone ought to understand. When our autonomic nervous system or involuntary nervous system senses threat or danger, what a researcher Steven Porges calls neuroception. Yes, he basically says, the defense mechanisms is comes on automatically, not by choice. So the person will freeze. And the reason why that is, is evolutionarily our ancestors had that response. And it was adaptive, like our ancestors that came across the poisonous snake. And those who tried to run got bitten.or, those who tried to fight it got bitten by those who just froze and did nothing. Period on pass their genes, the next generation. So the freeze response can, you know, come up with any of those, but often it comes up in our relationships, someone says something, and it causes us to not feel safe, and then we just don't do anything. And a lot of people just assume that, oh, this person doesn't like me. Or this person's being a jerk. When really, it's not a choice. It was a trauma response. Yeah, had that one recently. That's a good, I'm glad you're bringing that up. So you know, yoga is a not the only way but a way to recover from trauma. And clashes are an example of when the mental activities control you. And what makes Binney Vasia more constant is when we're identified with our thoughts. So that's the cliche of asmita. Where we, we look for our self image and the current activity of our thoughts. So if you have a mean, thought you think you're meeting the other kind thought you think you're kind. And that can go pretty well as long as you have pretty consistent control of your thoughts. But if you come to the realization that you might not necessarily be in control of your thoughts, that's suddenly your your thoughts become a prison. Yeah. So the, the opposite of asmita would be yoga, it would be choosing to discern the seer and the seen and listening, something that Deepak Chopra helped me with, like 25 years ago, that I was very grateful for but didn't really understand or know how to recreate as frequently as I wanted. But it turns out that the yoga sutra offers some really helpful advice on this one So the identification with thoughts cripples our ability to practice self control. And so many people are doing it. If you're going by virtue ethics, you know, like good people or identify with their thoughts, therefore, that's the right thing to do might be your, your way of attempting to go through the, the world. But that's, like Jai Krishna Murthy said it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to six society. Just because other people are doing it doesn't mean it's a great idea. So if you look at all of the mature spiritual traditions in India, all of them point out this particular thing to be called egotism, where we're identified with our thoughts and offer this alternative where you can abide in your own form. And, as pure consciousness, observe thoughts without identifying some people might take that too far and try to disassociate from their thoughts, make their thoughts go away, like, then I'll be happy. But all suggests that's another trauma response. disassociation, again, is your nervous system trying to protect you from something that finds threatening. But pretending that thoughts don't exist, doesn't make them go away. And yoga is this option of where you abide in your own farm, in the presence of whatever thought might be arising, lingering and passing away. And by discerning the seer, the scene and the scene, you can create the space between stimulus and response, to choose an appropriate response to the thought. And if you don't know what the right response to the thought is, you don't have to pretend to or look for someone else to do that for you. Rather, you can approximate an ideal and is to be able to how you choose to be in this world. Like you might see someone who's really inspiring, like, wow, that person is so kind, so patient, I want to be like that. If you make them your idol, and you try to be like them that that's another path to hell, which becomes virtue ethics. But if you take like this idea, like, you know what, I want to be compassionate, patient wise, then, like the Buddhist that's more of like an unchanging idea. And the unchanging ideal is perfect. can also argue that it's imaginary. But real nonetheless, just because it's abstract, doesn't mean that it's not real. And by devotion to that ideal, like the bodhisattva of compassion, or the the buddha of wisdom, we can be human beings, and we can become, we can make better and better choices, how we relate to our thoughts, and become more like that. So that's another way of looking at it yoga, from the yoga switcher. Interesting. Oh, so you do teacher trainings. And I'm guessing, like, you took us down an incredible path just now. A lot of information. And imagine like, a couple times, I thought, Well, my mind is doing gymnastics right now. Like, it got a little intense, I'll just just relax and just listen. I don't have to, like grasp on to every single. Maybe I won't understand every single thing you're saying right now. But at the same time, I'm getting the overall picture. And when you're teaching students that are new to yoga philosophy, and you start to see that they're kind of closing down. They're looking at their phone, they're like, going over the coffee pot, whatever, whatever it is that like just like, oh my gosh, like I you know, what, what is the strategy here? In your, in your? I mean, just a couple of things Michael just said if you don't mind me, just bring it up, like you said that you had you had challenges as a child learning, but wow, you're taking it to a level that's like, deep and, and not exhibiting to meet any sense of challenge with learning. You know what I mean? Like, you've got such a deep grasp of these concepts, your ability to memorize the sutras, learn the language, pull them from your memory banks, deliver them, and then continue the conversation and draw from all these different aspects. It's very obvious to me that you've been studying this seriously for a long period of time. So then the the new student appears, and how do you I mean, what we're doing right now is how we do it, right. Like we just talk about it. We just start. Just let's get started. Let's just get started in it. And but how do you coach your students in relation to the assimilation process? I remember one time when I was taking the I took a long distance philosophy course with York fairstein was a 800 hour course. And it took me a couple years to get through. And I remember like, midway through, I hit this point where I'd been investigating so many different ideas and thoughts and different books and traditions that it got so overwhelming. I was like, I need to take a break. This is like so intense, and I had to stop for a minute to step away. Um, what how has your journey been in relation to like the vigor for enthusiasm and learning? And then in times, where do you ever have that moment where you're like, holy cow, I need to just like go for a walk, and not think about anything like, or try to understand anything like, I mean, because the, the level of depth that the Indian philosophical traditions goes, I mean, it seems from my experience, it's like no stone has been left unturned. Like if I think I could come up with a new idea about a way of understanding life and reality and the existence and the potential for no existence and all these different ideas. It's like the India culture has has it. So well mapped out that we have to study. I mean, in my opinion, you have to dive into India philosophy, if you have any interest in, you know, like trying to figure out or having some grasp of like, the nature of reality, and the big questions, why am I here? And but I guess back to my initial question with you, what is the strategy for beginning philosophy students to try to walk this path without feeling overwhelmed? Well, these are great questions. And first, I just wanted to say, Don't be fooled. I struggle all the time with learning. Okay, thank you. I know something, it's because I've spent a lot of time getting it wrong, and learning from my mistakes. Most importantly, being able to discern myself from my mistakes. And being able to discern myself from my mistakes. So not seeing mistakes as a personal problem, or a like I'm you in the mistake are not the same thing. Mom, yeah, exactly. I made the mistake. But because I'm not the mistake, I have the option to keep making Yeah, I can make better choices. And that decoupling from thoughts is yoga. And but yeah, to answer your question, as forward as possible, the best way to learn this is through conversations like these. Yeah. And mainly listening carefully to each person. And I struggle to make yoga as accessible as possible to people of all kinds, regardless of whatever challenges they might be going through. And I certainly haven't figured that out. That's, that's something that I'm still learning. But I have, you know, no shortage of trying this and that, and I love that. Yeah, you know, ways that work better than others. And every individual I think, is unique. And one of the directions that I'm aiming to grow in is to integrate yoga and ru VEDA, Aria VEDA to speak to the depth and the beauty of the many Indian philosophical positions. I don't necessarily think that one has to study Indian philosophy. But wow, your worldview and experience of life would be enriched greatly if you chose to. Same with REO VEDA I didn't know that much about it. And therefore I thought I knew everything that I had to offer, which is the first pleasure called Vidya. It's ignorance of ignorance leads to misunderstanding. Not only do we not know, we don't even know that we don't know. We think we do know. And that's a big barrier to learning. Good plant, the things that can stop us from Oh, great point. How many times a day do I do that with different things? I like the way you said that with our VEDA like, I thought I knew I thought I knew enough about it. To not really understand it or like, yeah, that I do. I do understand what you just said. I didn't say it as well, as you just said. I think now that I teach ru Vedic students how to read the sutras that are required for them to understand ru VEDA. I I'm learning that it's so much more deep, powerful and useful than I even imagined every person has a different constitution. So, you know even though you and I look almost identical we do my glasses back guy. But yeah, some people just have more of like a tapa constitution some people more of a vata constitution. So, COPPA is like Earth water and like very solid on some you know, Vata is like air and vary all over the place and then some people more pitta, which is more of a fire type constitution and we all have each of them in us, some of us are vata, pitta, kapha, pitta vata complex and kaka pitta, vata and there's all these different temperaments and that's kind of like the seat you were born in. And it's not really a negotiable. That's like the DNA shuffle that that this lifetime produced and to thrive to have out, you don't necessarily need to change that. But when it starts to get out of balance, you ought to know like how to steer it back to balance. So being in a healthy body, and a healthy state of mind, are very important to our yoga and yoga has a lot to offer. So certain that Yoga and Ayurveda have been integrated in the past and are being integrated now. And I think both are better when integrated. Yoga has this discipline of practicing self control, taking responsibility, and Aria Vedas, the science of health, what causes it, how to promote it, disease, what causes it, how to interrupt it. And with that said, because there's so many different constitutions out there, what might be medicine for one person could be poisoned for another. And when I'm teaching yoga, for example, you know, for a certain constitution, Ashtanga vinyasa yoga, like the Mysore style could be, like, really awesome for one constitution and like poison for another. Whereas restorative yoga, could be like, medicine for one person, but also boys, and, yes, great to have options, and to understand what person needs what, in order to thrive, I don't know, just figuring it out. But I'm certain that the more I learn, the better, I'll be able to present yoga to people in the way that they need. Good point, you know, I saw on your website you have, which is clear light yoga.com, you have a 200 hour philosophy, teacher training, and which I have not. That was the first time I came across somebody doing that. Maybe there's other people doing it, I don't know. But I thought that's brilliant, and all online self paced course, where we meet every Sunday from four to 5pm, to discuss the content of these courses that are put together. So there's an interactive component. But yeah, it mainly emphasizes the the philosophical underpinnings of yoga. And the goal is to help people enrich their understanding, and to continue learning. The more you learn, more you can learn. The more you know, the more you realize there is to know if one can be content, being humbled like that, and living in a state of humility. Yeah, good point. Good point. And you attempt to draw a line from let me let's let's study philosophy. And also let me help give you strategies on ways to communicate the philosophy as a yoga teacher. So yeah, as far as yoga philosophy, and most yoga teacher trainings, it's, I think, 20 hours are required. And a lot of I've taken about 14 Different yoga teacher trainings and well often, philosophy is like an appendage, just like this add on. And, you know, each focuses on one aspect of yoga, mainly, whereas I think the philosophy is primary. And everything else could be arranged around the philosophy and I suspect that would make yoga more accessible. Yeah. Great. I love that you're Yeah, put all let's put the focus on that. Let's start here. Let's do the 200 hour level. Excellent. That's so cool, man. I'm so happy to see hear hear about this. Well, thank you, I, I'm reading a book right now called the case for God by Karen Armstrong. Have you ever read any of her work? I did actually read her book about the Buddha. Nice. She, her sister was a Buddhist, and she thinks spent a whole year researching the Buddha's life and presenting all of the historical evidence and controversies and the main argument for Buddhism. And I think a fairly great job I was I was impressed by the Yeah, I know that, like a nun for some time, and then was an atheist for a while, and then now she's probably on the fencer. I don't know. Yeah, I'm finding it absolutely fascinating. And she's brought a little bit of attention to through the study of all the different religions of the world, the common ground where, you know, Greek philosophy, married with theology, and some of the deep Christian Miss thinkers, but you know, being open and willing to take information from different schools to really come to this sort of understanding of one of the pinnacle elements in relation to creation myths, and creation theory is that, how can something come out of nothing as like being one of the big you know, I guess, if we're, if we're science based, or leaning towards science base, we have this idea that like, no matter, energy isn't created nor destroyed, it's like energy exists. So then this this, trying to figure out or contemplate the origin of the initial, the beginning of the beginning, what would you say the yoga sutra has to say? And I feel like you've answered that with your very first opening of the Hatha Yoga new Shah cinnamon relation now, and not just like, Okay, now, but like, the ever present now. The things that I find really refreshing about yoga philosophy, and Buddhism, or just philosophy in general, is instead of being dogmatic, like you have to believe this, it encourages you to think for yourself. Yeah. And listen to the arguments and, you know, basically choose a position that makes the most sense to you. And, yeah, I try to teach you that I don't try to foist any beliefs or views onto other people, but simply offer them the technology with which they can create some healthy space between themselves and their thoughts and sort them out. That's kind of you know, Karen Armstrong seems to have a knack for that. Yeah. Another. You know, I can't speak necessarily for Donnelly, or the yoga sutra. But I can say that I've learned the most from non dogmatic presentations on it. Yeah. And I personally think that yoga philosophy is non dogmatic. It really is philosophy. It's not the only way, but it is a way. And and you can't necessarily say that of all the other schools. But one could approach any discipline or any school in South Asia or abroad, in a non dogmatic way, and find something beautiful from it. Yeah, well said, if you're an anti theist, and like, you're, you have an axe to grind, and you're attached to like, a specific outcome, then you're more likely to be taken for a ride and miss out on the opportunity to appreciate what you're learning. Yeah, good point. I noticed that I've one more question for you, Michael. Because I know I want to I want to stay true to your time schedule here. I noticed on your website that you teach a class called bhakti flow into stillness. And then I tried to imagine, I wonder what that class looks like. And so I guess I'm wondering what you do for Bach. I'm thinking you start with movement, ending in meditation, but then what is bhakti flow in your definition, end up being? So you know, I might be a rare example of bhakti yoga in the world. A non theistic approach to bhakti is something that inspires me. So each water or the Dharmakaya, for example, is not a God, a creator god or someone that's responsible for how things are, but it's rather an ideal that I can approximate or anyone could and my willingness to speak about that objectively allows me to be very transparent instead of mystical and hide behind multiple meanings and fog. But rather, in the beginning of the class, I basically introduced yoga. It's a non dogmatic theory of devotion, I offer a presentation of an aspect of yoga. And then usually like a mantra that illuminates or sutra that illuminates that particular concept. And I'll encourage people to sing it in the Sanskrit so they can learn it and memorize it. And then we go through a Vinyasa practice, that's all levels. So I'm trying to like, find what would be accessible to what is common denominator to help them be able to make peace with their body as they develop strength, balance and flexibility and eventually work towards stillness, not just lying down shavasana, but sitting still in meditation. That's nice, excellent, great description. And then I really want to just like, come right back to what you just said that you are attempting to maintain your authenticity and present a non theistic perspective of bhakti. Because bhakti is a very theistic orientated philosophy, right? So your old your presentation, do take it that you're that you're attempting to present the bhakti philosophy, but without just going down the theistic realm of it, which is That's cool, man. That's a that's an interesting challenge to take on, I guess, I mean, like, for theistic and like, I love them. Yeah. And everything. But yeah, I really went down deep, the rabbit hole of Buddhism and the non theistic approach to spiritual life, I think just makes more sense to me, I understand. And some people might call like this unchanging ideal, like the idea of a bodhisattva, a form of God, and that's fine with me, it doesn't bother me. But I don't necessarily see an unchanging ideal as something to surrender to. But more as an ideal to devote myself to be nice. And so I guess I'm a bit more scientific friendly than most other bhakti teachers. But I'm not trying to be hostile in any way. That anyone that's theistic. Yeah. I see the way that would make sense to people and why they'd want to do that. Yeah, there's another. Yeah. Here's another way it's possible. It's actually possible to keep learning, keep studying and come up with another approach. And oh, man, what a great opportunity. Michael, I'm so thankful I had this chance to speak with you. I want to give kudos, and thanks to Andrew Jones for introducing us. And he was kind enough, I asked him, Andrew, who can I? Who can I interview? And he said you got interview Michael Johnson. So I thank you, Andrew. Michael, thank you so much for taking time out your day, I would love to have the opportunity to speak with you again. And do this in the future and continue conversing about philosophy and yoga, because I it's fascinating. And you've, you're putting the time in, which I really appreciate. And I learned a lot today, and I really enjoyed listening. So thank you so much. Is there any thing that you would like to leave us with? Well, just much appreciation and gratitude for you, for Andrew and Pam, and for the work that you're doing to help make yoga accessible to the people in your community and to learn more. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day. Thanks, you too. Thanks. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If you liked this show, let me know if there's room for improvement. I want to hear that too. We are curious to know what you think and what you want more of what I can improve. And if you have ideas for future guests or topics, please send us your thoughts to info at Native yoga center. You can find us at Native yoga center.com. And hey, if you did like this episode, share it with your friends. Read it and review and join us next time