Dr. Michael Shea ~ Polyvagal Theory in Yoga and Meditation

In this episode of the Native Yoga Toddcast, host Todd welcomes back Dr. Michael Shea for a discussion on polyvagal theory in yoga and meditation. They explore the importance of the vagus nerve, an information highway that connects the brain to every organ system in the body. Dr. Shea explains how the vagus nerve plays a crucial role in our sense of safety and how trauma can impact its functioning. They delve into the concepts of top-down and bottom-up approaches in therapy and the role of yoga and meditation in regulating the nervous system. The episode highlights the significance of turning inward and finding love in the present moment as a means of healing and self-discovery.

Visit Michael on his website: https://www.sheaheart.com/

Key Takeaways:

• The vagus nerve is a vital information highway that connects the brain to every organ system in the body, providing sensory impressions and information about our state of safety.
• Trauma can disrupt the functioning of the vagus nerve, leading to heightened stress responses or withdrawal and numbing behaviors.
• Yoga and meditation can help regulate the vagus nerve and promote a greater sense of safety and well-being.
• The yamas and niyamas, ethical principles in yoga, provide a moral code that can guide our relationships with others and ourselves, supporting the turn inward and self-discovery.

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Chapters

• 10:30 Exploring Polyvagal Theory in Yoga and Meditation |
• 20:30 Understanding the Vagus Nerve and Polyvagal Theory |
• 30:30 Understanding the Vagus Nerve's Role in Survival and Bodily Functions |
• 40:30 Exploring Affective Neuroscience and Attachment in Psychotherapy |
• 50:30 Exploring Contemplative Neuroscience Through Yoga and Meditation |

Transcript

0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. So happy you are here. My goal with this channel is to bring inspirational speakers to the mic in the field of yoga, massage bodywork and beyond. Follow us @nativeyoga, and check us out at www.nativeyogacenter.com. All right, let's begin. Hello, and welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. And today my special guest, Dr. Michael Shea for a return visit. Michael, you're one of our most beloved podcast guests, because people love you. They do...they listen. And so I'm so happy to have you here. And I was just going through all of the different interviews that I've had an opportunity to have with you. Starting from the very beginning, we just celebrated our four year anniversary with the podcast. And I feel like you've been an integral in helping me to grow it actually. Because you bring quality to the table, you study and you pay attention. And you're an incredible teacher and I really honor this opportunity to have you here. We've had episode six called Interview with Dr. Michael Shea. Episode 33 titled Navigating Through the Age of Uncertainty. We had episode 44 titled Yoga and Zen meditation. That was our most popular one! Episode 50, The Five Element Cosmology and Buddhist Meditation. Episode 98 titled Embodiment of the Senses Through Yoga and Meditation. The last one was episode 139, The Visionary Heart. That was great. Today Polyvagal Theory in Yoga and Meditation. Do you think you can talk about polyvagal theory comfortably? I didn't prep you with any questions. So I'm throwing you to the wolves here, I can ask you some, some questions. And I'm aiming to try to keep this as simple as possible. Because it's a fairly complex subject. I'm hoping that you the listener will feel very comfortable, like you can understand. So we're going to take it really slow and steady. And first of all, thank you so much for being here. Well, Todd, thank you. And it's always a joy being here, number one, because I get to walk over here from across. Yes. And it's just delightful. And also to say how much I appreciate not only this studio and you and your wife, you know, because you are my teacher is because I was certified here in in the yoga practice. So I really appreciate that possibility of knowing who you are, and that we form this community together. But I also really appreciate when I look at the other podcast you do you know, sometimes I go, "Oh, that person's better than me and smarter than me." And it's not so much that it's just when I see what you put out. Just in we're just talking about the podcast now. There is a depth and a richness that can support people's lives. And I think that's really what I like, doing and being here for and I know you do, too. So thank you, Michael. So thank you for this opportunity to enrich and support people's lives, and especially their bodies. You're welcome. Thank you. That's a huge compliment. I really appreciate it. You know, you reached out to me and said, Hey, Todd, what I'm noticing trending is polyvagal theory in yoga. And you recommended that I read a book, which I got the majority through prior to today called Applied Polyvagal Theory in Yoga by Arielle Schwartz, which I absolutely love. Thank you, Mrs. Schwartz or Arielle Schwartz. It's amazing. So I guess my first question for you is, can you just give us a little bit of understanding of why should I know about my vagus nerve? As some maybe I'm somebody who has no anatomical understanding of a muscle name, a nerve name, any sort of an anatomy study? Why as they say, a beginning student, whether it be in yoga or meditation, could I benefit from having a little bit of understanding of polyvagal theory? Well, well, good question. And you really want me to keep it simple? No, I want to pull The depth out of you. But at the same time, if you had to make your elevator pitch to me, I jumped in the elevator with you, I got three floors going up. And I and you asked me hey, have you ever heard of the polyvagal? polyvagal? Theory? I say no. And you only have a little bit of time to just very briefly explain it. And then I'll we'll dig in deeper from there. Well, thank you. So polyvagal theory. So vagus nerve that's, you know, based on the vagus nerve and vagus nerve again, so we're talking about the brain, but we're also talking about the body. And, you know, if you go on Google and you put in vagus nerve, you're gonna get overwhelmed with a volume of information, and research data from the last 20 years or so. That's just incredible. So what is all this pointing to? And why is one nerve, you know, within the brain and the body so important? Well, it's an information highway, the vagus nerve is is a enormous information highway, because it plugs in to every single organ system in the body, literally plugs in synapses with whatever you want to call it. And it plugs into every single organ system. Every single physiological data point in metabolic data point has to feed through the vagus nerve goes up to the brain. And then the brains got to figure out the information that it's getting from the vagus nerve about, you know, the state of my gut. But a lot of the research is about what's going on with the state of my heart. So the vagus nerve is a way in which information is supplied to the brain, but it's also not just about information, it's about sensation, what I can feel about my body, I can actually bring vagal sensory impressions that the body is giving the brain, but I can make them conscious, and I can feel that. Yeah. Now, that is super important. Because, you know, like in Ariel's book here, once you have conscious perception of information and sensation in your body, you got choices. Yeah, you got choices you can make about behaviors, direction, and so forth. So with this information, and this information highway, that's going up to the brain. The main, the other main thing that you need to know about it is that the vagus nerve, the primary association is with safety. So this book is a lot about, you know, how do you feel safe in the yoga studio? How do you feel safe in psychotherapy? How do you feel safe on the street? How do you feel safe at home, all of that, all of that domain, some of which is unconscious, and some of which can be very conscious, like your heartbeat is telling you whether you're safe or not, or whether you're in love or not. But all of that is vital to the way in which we function in life every single day, we need to know we're feeling safe. And we need to have this information. And the pathway has to be clear. Yes. So we have to if we can go and practice yoga, this will help if we want to say purify, but it'll clarify the vagal pathways so that the information is transmitted better number one, and that we have a greater sense of safety, and we know how to navigate our world better. And we can do this through yoga. Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. Yeah, that's one thing that I definitely have picked up from this reading is that yoga actually works. And there's scientific proof. There's there's actual proof, this can be proven that yoga and meditation does work. And what I'm finding fascinating is that by doing a little bit of study and reading about the vagus nerve and how it does function, it's helping me to take my attention, move my attention from what I initially thought I was practicing yoga, and how I was interacting with my yoga meditation practice and helping me to kind of refocus it in a way that I can really appreciate that. I have the ability to sense and like you said, there's a choice. And that's what's absolutely amazing, right versus like, oh, gosh, I feel my heart racing. And I just keep noticing my heart's racing, but then to actually make the connection that okay, well, I have the ability to breathe a little differently, and move from my fight or flight mode down into my restaurant. Kermode and that the information the nerve is providing me. And if I just have a couple of tools in my toolbox, I can actually control or help manage my own anxiety, stress and even something as simple as like, you know, someone honking or the doorbell ringing, and you know, you're just kind of caught off guard and that first thing where your heart starts being like, oh my gosh, who's going to be at the door? What am I gonna do when I get there? And, you know, just like right away, noticing the sensation of the body, and then just like, going right to the breath. Okay, I'm ready, let's, let's face whatever's in front of me here. So I guess it sounds so simple, but I don't know, I'm starting to feel how amazing this backup information coming from the science community from Porges and all the other people that you've worked with that who are helping us to live life better, right? Through it feels like, yeah, absolutely, to really make the most of this opportunity that we have, right. And there's a big theme in the book, and I'm sure you've noticed it, and that it's the theme of trauma. So you know, how trauma, you know, damages, our capacity to sense, these vagal impressions that are vital to our health and well being. And so I like the way you know, the author parses out the notion of trauma. And I think that's very important. Also, in a yoga studio, in others, there's different types of trauma, you know, typically, you know, we would have physical abuse and or physical trauma can be just a concussion, but then there's, you know, developmental trauma in their sexual abuse, which, you know, we hear about all the time and in the culture, and so forth. And then there's PTSD, the author talks about PTSD. So I'm a relative expert in PTSD, because I have this 100% service related military, PTSD, disability from being in the military. So there's that type of, you know, military trauma. So I think it's very important that the listener also have some way to navigate. And this is what the book goes towards, somewhat navigate what happens when I touch that history, when I touch that trauma, when I have a recovered memory, we're, we're all of a sudden, you know, the heart starts to accelerate, or I actually have a recovered memory, I get an image or a sensation as they Whoa, it takes me right back into that place. And this is what polyvagal theory is saying that when those places get touched, there's only a couple of options, you know, we get very activated, the heart starts to race. And that's called sympathetic arousal. But what the polyvagal system discovered is that since there's two types of vagal nerves, the older one, we'll just say there's a new one, which is faster, and then the old one, which is slower. And in some say, when we really look at the polyvagal, in Porges, his work, you know, millions, maybe two or 300 million year old, old vagus nerve, well, that's pretty old, you know, through a lot of evolutionary development. And it's that particular phase, that particular part of the vagus nerve that causes a deeper reaction to trauma, in which we actually withdraw. So we can get sympathetically aroused, that's kind of like the the top part. But depending on the severity of our own history, and our own imprinting, and so forth, we can run into this like unconscious automatic, where all of a sudden, we just kind of get dopey or we just numb out. And we withdraw from that whole from the world itself. It's called depersonalization or D realization. And the literature is very fond of calling it dissociation. But, so meaning that we just numb out, and our blood pressure drops, and some people even pass out. It's beautiful hearing Porges lecture about the early literature that he had to study in the 1950s about the vagus nerve. But so we encounter trauma we can encounter with, you know, a yoga class. And we sometimes the book is about also about psychotherapy, we can go into therapy into work on that issue. But when we actually encountered at the sensory level, noticing, what is our style, have we are we in the activated stress response of the sympathetics? Or are we in that kind of old ancient default withdrawal suppress numb out mode? And so, these are distinctions made within the polyvagal model that are being attributed to the vagus nerve itself and the new one and then the old one that worked together. Can you help me understand when you say new and old Is it that it's, it's one nerve that has an element to it that's connected to our ancient biology of our origins. And then the newer one is the way the nerve is now evolving due to our modern stresses and technologies like what how, when we say new and old, I mean, the first thing in my thought My mind went was to like, like, I have an old like two separate nerves and ones the old like, one that's attuned to like the reptilian sort of reaction, or I was here reptilian Brown, the sheriff, I really fully understand what that means, but, and then the lizard brain, you know, like, I first came across it, and people were saying, like, we're all aliens. And, you know, we're really reptiles. And so what you know, but um, I have noticed that well, can you based off what I asked to see that makes sense? How can you? How do you? How do we explain this old and new? Is it? Is it one nerve that has aspects of like this ancient part? And a newer part? What do you mean, I think it's important just to let me just mention Paul McLean's work at National Institutes of Health, and he pretty much put what's called the triune brain on the map. So we're kind of predating Porges, and polyvagal. But it's very important because McLean's work really made a big splash about the evolution of the human brain and the evolution of the human central nervous system. So to understand that we have to look at the pre Cambrian period of life, you know, we're talking about 500 million years ago, when the very first creatures we could say that had nervous systems that would ultimately become or evolve into or be used by homosapiens began to evolve, okay, and the very first dynamic we now call the brainstem. So we all have a brainstem, and that's the really old part of our brain. And when you say, reptilian or lizard, or what the lizard brain, the lizard brain, you know, you and I are in South Florida, and there's a lot of lizards around here. Big ones, and yeah, ones and six foot tall lizards. I mean, we got some real interesting critters that are living in their brainstem. But the point being, that in the evolution, the brainstem is really responsible for really rapid response time. You know, you and I live here. And you know, and I grew up here. So I grew up looking at lizards, and in watching their responsiveness, how quickly they move, yeah, all of that in response to threat. Because the issue back to safety is how you manage threat in the environment. So the brainstem evolved right away, because in early evolution, you had to move quickly, or you were done. Okay. So gradually over time, and you know, and then we get into the period of Homo sapiens, and so forth, and maybe 100 million, however old our species might be. So we get into the mid brain, where groups of us, early US, you could say, would band together, because it's better to be together as a group to protect yourselves, you know, in early in early history, than it was to be alone. So, in order to do that, you had to develop a part of your brain where you had affiliative behaviors, and you could become more social. So the midbrain part is really, really important. The emotional brain is what that's called, in managing your emotions, and being able to settle if you live with a group for a common, that dynamic that you had to protect your community from the outside world. And you could just imagine, you know, all the all the dynamics associated with that. And then gradually in evolution, there's the forebrain, so the the orbital frontal cortex or whatever, you know, the literature might be calling it today. But so that's the the newer brain in which you had more executive function, you could live together and you could override, you could override with your thinking processes, and your inner ability to process information, you could override that early responsiveness to kill, to fight to flee and you could be able to negotiate. So the triune brain dynamic is very important to the polyvagal theory hitchhikes on that both these branches the vagus nerve are coming out of the brainstem. So yeah, you could say that They're reptilian in their own way. But not really, because in our evolution, you've got, yeah, the super old part of the brainstem, but then you've got newer additions, because these parts are not separate, they're all together. So the brainstem has all these functional circuits with midbrain in the forebrain, and so forth. So, but we retain that old lizard, you know, dynamic because the lizard dynamic and the reptilian dynamic is not necessarily always about an immediate response. It's about death, fainting, in order, in other words, withdrawal of cardiovascular support, lowering of breath pressure, in order to save myself, because if I play dead, the creature that's attacking me, whether it's another human, or an animal, might just pick me up and not eat me, it might, you know, really, really support my survival. So that's a very important part of our structure is that capacity to immobilize for health and well being. But we also have to that same function, which is super old, you know, and we need that as a protective mechanism. And yes, and it's evolutionarily driven. But we also need that, to go to the bathroom, we need to sit in immobilize, in order to have a bowel movement, we need to sit or stand and immobilize in order to urinate, and so forth. So it's very important to understand that it's not always about trauma. So and then the newer part came along with the Association for this for brain connection where we could talk ourselves down out of it. If I feel my heartbeat, Todd, I'm going to use my thinking process. Wow, I'm going to use my forebrain Wow, I've got an accelerated heart, you know, heart rate, what am I going to do? What am I going to do is coming from the forebrain. And I can look around, I can change my behavior, I can get away from the stimulus, whatever that might be. In the day and age we live, I could get away from the stimulus without a lot of violence, hopefully, or perhaps, but you see that the dynamic associated with Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. Good answer. Now I understand long answer. But will you have to? It's interesting, do you think that the vagus nerve is sudden, a newer nerve to in are developed like that the as we were able to develop this new element in our mind that could say, What shall I do? I feel this now it's my option, that then a new nerve pathway has formed in our species. Did you think the vagus nerve has always been there from the beginning? Or is it something that has slowly evolved its way in now that we have this ability to socialize if we choose, or we can be safe? Even if we're not in a group? It seems like sometimes we feel safer when we're, you know, if I feel stimulus, and I retreat into the studio, or I go home, and just close the curtains and sit in my room and get into a quiet space, you know, I guess what I'm wondering is, we have evolved, and we are evolving. So where's the problem? What where's the problem? I we just not taking advantage of what we have? Is that what it is we're not using our we're not using ourselves to the capacity that we could or can and what is the problem? What is the problem? Well, in terms of Is there a problem in terms of this book? Ultimately, there's no problem. But in terms of this book. That was not the last. There's no difference between samsara and nirvana. Oh, yeah. So fine, because I brought up with somebody I said, Hey, I'm getting ready to have this conversation with Dr. Michael Che about the polyvagal theory. And he said, What is that in everything bagel? And I said, No, no, no, Polly vagal not poly bagel and he thought that the poly so Oh, boy. Okay, let's, let's back it up here. So but I mean that I say that as a joke, because it is a little complex. But what were you gonna say? I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, I said. So there we are. There is no problem. The problem back to the beginning of the conversation is trauma. The degree to which we as human beings are imprinted trans generationally, genetically from what we're carrying from our lineage or ancestral lineage. What we're carrying and had been imprinted, while we're pregnant in our mom's womb, and how we were imprinted. And what we carry from early infant in childhood experiences, and even our day to day, you know, adult experiences. So it's important that you know, one of my favorite, Robert Thurman, one of my favorite Buddhist teachers is Robert Thurman, and he's a professor emeritus at Columbia University. And he said, and this was very helpful to me, we are the trauma species, Homo sapiens is the trauma species. Nobody escapes trauma to one degree or another. But we all have our own unique way of responding and reacting to trauma. So therein lies the challenge, because we all have this different type of imprinting that causes what is it's called, in the literature, a set point. So everybody has a different set point, or a threshold that when triggered, so to speak, yeah, will cause this reactive behavior and so forth. And that's what makes it interesting, you know, around all that, so, yeah, yes, there is trauma. It's, it's not unique to humans. And there's a part of that we really need to accept as human beings. And the acceptance component doesn't mean it's okay. It just means that we have to come to terms with it, because it's never changed. War. Violence, has never changed in the history of the human culture. Yes, there's been periods where there has been less. And there's been periods where there has been more. And we have to really appreciate and get into the yoga of this, that this, we are talking about a fundamental mystery. It's a mystery of life. And the older you get, we have to process this trauma in a different way. And this is why this book and this is why yoga is so important, that it brings us into an embodied sense of who we are, it gives us a greater adaptability and a greater ability to change those brain structures that have changed over the millennia. We don't know how long it's been going on. But the book in in our the literature is saying we can change these neurological patterns now. And we can change them through yoga, through certain really, you know, evidence based forms of psychotherapy and so forth. Can you talk a little bit about what Dr. Schwartz mentions in the book about this psychotherapeutic approach is a more of a top down approach. And yoga and or meditation is like this, from the bottom up approach in relation to somatic awareness. And the interplay between reasoning and thinking the problem now, like if I experienced, difficult traumatic event, and then I go through a talking therapy to help to relieve my association to that experience, versus a yoga practice, or a meditation practice being primarily a somatic approach, any thoughts or feelings there? I think again, the the the notion of top down and bottom up, comes out of a field called Affective Neuroscience. So in we're actually just talking about a neurologically based model. So the polyvagal model is a neurologically based model. But there are others. And this book borrows from a couple, and it is borrowing from Affective Neuroscience. And that has to do with when we're born, how the brain actually develops, outside of the uterus, outside of the womb. And so, you You see, in the first year of development, a tremendous amount of growth, with the first 12 months neonatally perinatally is is incredibly important, because all the brain is kind of set in place in terms of these pathways between the front, the middle, in the back, and that's called attachment theory. And so the way in which we attach to our caregivers, and our parents and so forth, is very important, because that's where the set points in these thresholds also can change and suggesting on our parent, and when we're left alone as an infant, and we're not crying, that's when the parasympathetic that's when the vagus nerve develops its safety function, feeling safe, because I can be internal and I can feel the inside of my body. And I can feel this bottom up dynamic of the vagus nerve developing in sending information to the brain, where there's not At an outside threat, I'm not being yelled at or screamed at or whatever. Yeah, no, not left alone. And I'm not crying. And you see this in really healthy attachments. That's how the vagus nerve develops that ability to give bottom up information about chilling. And overriding see your body in a yoga class, you can override, you know, all this stuff that's going on in your brain about stress and all that this is why it's so beautiful. But the top down model is also saying that at a cognitive level, you know, our thinking can be disrupted from these early attachment experiences. And we're not even thinking correctly or we're not interpreting the information we're getting from our body. So we can over intellectualize it, we can, oversell monetize it, overthink it, you know, and we're still out of balance. And all this is talking about is you top down, bottom up in bottom up has to have a lot of support with somatic practices, especially yoga, and meditation. Yeah. Interesting. Good answer. Thank you. Well, what is the is so we have a Ferrant, neuroscience. And then there's also an effective it's called Affective Neuroscience. And in other words, emotional affecting, means the effect. effect is another word for emotion. So the way we express emotions in the literature is called an effect. And so Affective Neuroscience is the science of how we develop emotional responsiveness. In childhood, neonatally, perinatally. In humans, when is the winner? Is it considered an appropriate time to not have that type of care? That's one thing I'm finding so fascinating just to, as I'm reading and thinking about my own life, and my own trauma? And wonder men of what type of care did I get in that safe zero to two age frame? Like, at what level? And it's so it's such an it's such a fascinating meditation, just in reading and just kind of feeling and trying to go back to that phase of, obviously, my memory, my memory does not go back that far. So I don't remember laying in the crib and looking up or whatever. But I guess maybe where I could contact that memory is through how safe I feel now? Because if I wasn't allowed to feel safe in that early stage, perhaps I would have it does have a huge effect on us. Later on. Yeah, absolutely. So is there a point? Is there one point, is there an idea that at about age five, is when you're ready, you're good to go? Or is it like a content, probably both a continuous thread throughout life, because it seems like that attachment phase, where is really critical having someone hold us, what I'm loving hearing her talk about is just like rocking, you know, and just doing really simple, gentle rocking motion, or when we see someone who's maybe undergoing some sort of therapeutic process, maybe it's such a psychotherapy, they're struggling, and they maybe just will naturally start to rock because it's like a innate thing that if we were held, if we were lucky enough to be held, when we were children, somebody rocked us. And it makes sense that then I could, in my own yoga practice, just do a very simple rocking motion with the body in a position and just try to inspire a sense of safety, a sense of connection. So I guess what I'll get back to my initial question, is there a certain amount of time that's absolutely essential that we receive this to be able to function healthfully in the world are like H two h five H 10. What is the theory there? Well, when I said at the feet of these masters, I mean, these neurological masters, and I'm specifically talking about Allan Schore, as well as Steven Porges. Know, Allan Schore, is another big contributor in this Interpersonal Neurobiology series. And he said something really profound because Allan Schore is the expert on Affective Neuroscience, so I studied his work intensively. And he said something interesting to the same question that one of the students asked Annie, his answer was, it's never too late to get the love you missed. As a human being, love is such a critical key opponent at any stage of life, if because you're right, I don't know what I missed. You know, I interviewed my mom and I interviewed my dad. And I said, What was I like, when I was, you know, you guys are not like that. But I got some interesting information about that as well for both my mom and dad when I asked them. But TMI more than he wanted more than Yeah, I got a little too I got it was a little too TMI. My mother was so sweet, because I want you have to be careful when you ask your parents about true your pregnancy, and what you were like, as a baby, you have to be you have to phrase it in a certain way. Because a lot of parents have regrets about the way what they did. My mother went to her deathbed with a regret and she would never tell me what the regret was that she had in her life. Yeah, you know, when you study, you know, death, you know, in hospice care. You know, boy, if you're getting ready to die, you gotta be done with these regrets in life, man. Yeah, get up to date. But it anyway. God bless my mother, my mother smoked a pack, she was very fun. I smoked a pack of cigarettes every day when I was pregnant with you. And I drank two drinks of Scotch every night and three on the weekend when I was pregnant with you. And you kids, you think that that's all going to be wrong, and something's wrong with you? My jaw was like, Wow, a pack a day. I wonder I don't like Scott. But but the point is, you know, you can investigate with parents, because it's very warm and wonderful to have be in that conversation and be curious about your past. What if you're adopted? That's another conversation altogether. Yeah. And in you would want to be able to do that, you know, with your adoptive parents, and find out what you can as best you can, yeah. And have support because all of this, if you find out information that is shocking to you, and you go, Oh my God, no wonder I'm so messed up. Then you've got to have some support. So you want to make sure you have some support as you're investigating your past but but the reality is, do we really need to investigate our past when the answer is getting love, seeking love, feeling, getting the experience of love in the present moment, and kind of gradually letting go of the past, and accepting that the past happened, we're still here, we're still alive, doing the best we can. And that it's a tapestry, and that this tapestry has woven a whole person, and I am this whole person. And I deserve love. And I can get love and I can express love. And I think one of the things especially like in a yoga practice, or even she mentioned in a meditation practice, you can have these experiences of awe. You can call them love. But these experiences of awe are really, really important experiences of love, experiences of settling experiences, a peacefulness. These are so critical as the last chapter in her book, because she really goes through the sequence of managing what you can do in the present moment. So that's kind of another long answer to your question. But that's good. Yeah. Makes Perfect. Never too late. Never too late. And don't I did because that was the I investigated the past because 20 or 25 years ago, that's what you did. In the American model of New Age therapy. You investigated your babyhood, you're in your childhood and so forth. Yeah. Well, how is the American model, or global current global model evolved from that? Is that what this book is presenting, that we aren't necessarily needing to only rehash the amount of packs of cigarettes smoked and scotches drank and to make the excuse as to why I'm so messed up. We're using proper language of trying to not curse hear, messed up, and occasionally feel like we're mess. If you feel like you're constantly 24/7 You messed up? Yeah, get some help. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Yes, please, do do. How have we evolved? This understanding now that we have this? It seems like the polyvagal theory is an evolution of what you had mentioned borrowing from or piggybacking off of that prior Ira theory where we got into the understanding of the reptilian brain and the the forming of this kind of understanding of where we are now, where have we made some strides in our therapeutic models since the 70s, the 80s and 90s? And is that answer that we're integrating yoga meditation into these more scientifically designed therapeutic? Rooms? Spaces? There are? Well, that's a really hard question, you know, because there, there's so many forms of therapy. Now, I mean, psychotherapy, psychiatric therapy, in many forms are involved with pharmaceuticals. And now the trend in it just in terms of trauma, or psychedelic assisted therapies, with MDMA, ketamine, and psilocybin mushrooms and LSD, the FDA, as of two weeks ago, just approved LSD as an anxiety therapy. Okay, so amazing. That's a huge, huge, that's a huge turnaround. It's a huge turnaround, and the and then marijuana being used within the context of anxiety, and so forth. So there's a lot of good medical research, you know, around that. But, but we're talking about yoga, and we're talking about a map to deal with this. And I think what she does in her book is there is a really good job. And if I may say, because you know more about this, than I do, but she's she's trying to merge the, the traditional yamas and new Yamas. And I think she does a really good job, because I do tend to the Yamahas and the the new Yamas. In that way, she describes the eight fold path is such a, it's been there forever. Todd is built within the context of your mastery, your your work here at the studio with Tamra and the other teachers that you have here. So it's already built in and I like, I didn't really understand it that well, when I got my certification here. But when I read this, I was focused on this, like, Oh, now I understand the Amazon. I know I had so many lightbulb moments I knew as I read this. And she does a really good job with it. Because she, she she places it within the context of our conversation that we've just been having. And then she's got her five stages of, you know, through the therapeutic yogic practice that you can follow. And it's she's weaving in the yamas and niyamas. And I think that's critical. Yeah. Why do you feel it's critical? The morality piece is that the part that you're feeling is critical. The morality in the sense of well, I like what you said earlier about, once you recognize that you have experienced trauma, and you have the question of what to do next. You said, one of the answers is find love here now. Start to find some love here now. And then from there that can expand out. And I know that might be easier said than done. But I actually don't think that's so difficult. I think if we really truly want or need compassion, empathy and love from other humans, it's, it's out. It's here. appropriate approaches. Thank you. Thank you, and hence why morality is very important, right? So yeah, sorry, this is where I'm curious why you are really having this epiphany about the yamas and Yamas because I typically look at the Amazon Yama Zaza first laying down a moral code, let's not be violent, let's speak truthfully with one another. Let's, let's acknowledge let's not steal so I'm not gonna take from you right, I'm gonna steal from Brahmacharya which is often defined as like sexual, being sexually responsible, but I think that's really important because it kind of says look, when children are developing, they're not to engage any of that type of behavior. So I think that obviously is hugely important and then not being greedy. So this is like a moral code that we need to adhere to. So why do you feel the moral code is playing such an important role in or why you're now all sudden seeing it a little bit more clear? Well, I'm what I'm referring to are the I think she calls it the eight new Yamas Oh, yeah, well, there's the five yamas and five new yamas and then the neon was going to sow Bucha which is like cleanliness and then we have Santos show which is contentment. And then we have pasta kappa ha which is austerity and or having understand of how he affects us. And we have Suad Yaya, which is study or self observation or study of sacred texts, and then we have Ishwara Ponte Donna having some sense of something beyond just me like that there's a greater, the greater me, it's a bigger me, right? So Well, the way I'm looking at it is he says at the beginning of the book, and then in chapter six here, initially, the yamas and niyamas help us navigate our relationships with others and ourselves. And I think that's what we're just talking about correct the moral code, so to speak, asana and pranayama help us refine our relationship to body and breath. So we may release unnecessary tension, and so forth, we then develop our capacity to revise, refine our mental capacities with pratyahara prot, Pratyahara, hace hora, which invites us to withdraw our senses from the outer world. And dharana said, right, it is concentration which invites us to immerse ourselves in the present moment, through focused attention. And then di Jana, or meditation is the outcome of the efforts of all the previous limbs. Meditation is the experience of an expansion of consciousness beyond the confines of the mind. So here's the point, I mean, that I gleaned from this lease. There's another neuroscience that's important that we mentioned. So we've we've mentioned poly vagal, neuroscience, we've mentioned, Affective Neuroscience. But we also have the emerging field of what's called contemplative neuroscience. So yoga and meditation fit within this whole dynamic of contemplative neuroscience in what we're finding out how we can change our brain, I think in my reading of these is Freshy, Pratyahara, Pratyahara. Let me let me just say we, I mean, me just let me just say, we both looked at the clock, I know, we both looked at the clock, three minutes, I think we could do this in three minutes, because it might be a good way for completion. And that is, I was asked a couple of years ago, to do an interview, in a filmed interview about cancer. And I looked at the interviewer, I said, I'm not a doctor, you know, I don't have cancer patients in my practice, but ever since then I have. And but I looked at the person that wanted to do this. And I said, I can tell you one thing about the people that do that I talked to, is that when they're given the cancer diagnosis, they're terrified. They enter a state of terror. And the reason for that is they do not have knowledge of Pratyahara. They do not know how to turn inward. This, this science of yoga, and meditation is so unbelievably critical in terms of contemplative neuroscience. And this, to me is the key in these eight, new Yamas is that moment, when we have to turn inward, to discover our inner spiritual reality that lives within us and lives within our heart. And that is the key when you turn inward. I mean, meditate, what is meditation? I mean, come on, she gives a couple of definitions here. But meditation is anything that allows us to turn inward, to concentrate appropriately, in appropriately and to settle in achieve a calm and peaceful state of mind. And to develop an open hearted sense of self. And other. I mean, yes, it begins with the turn inwards. I think that's the critical part in this book. That's what the yoga in this studio for me teaches. Because you got to turn inwards to feel your body and your vagus nerve. Ha, good job. We do it. I think we did it. Thank you, Todd. Wow, I know that was so fast. We both set our goal for each other that we're going to do this within 50 minutes. And just just try to talk in a way that we get to our point and be succinct but also be able to dig in there a little bit. And, but we were going to be doing it again, and this is episode number seven with you. I mean, we're gonna keep going here. Yeah, what comes out of the end of the year, we'll do another one. That sounds amazing. I like the fact that you just called me up and said, Todd, you got to read this book. And let's do a talk on it. And you know, you're keeping me abreast on what's happening. I'm currently in this field. And I also just really, really appreciate the opportunity as, as a therapist, as a massage therapist, and I am not a you know, I'm doing air quotes licensed or a yoga therapists because that requires special certification for me to use. But I can't help but just feel like every yoga practice, every yoga setting is the most amazing, therapeutic way to deal with everything here. And now that we're facing, it just feels so incredible. I'm so thankful that I got into this whole yoga world. Back when I don't know how I would survive without it. To be honest. I know that sounds like a religious experience. I Oh, if I didn't find this special, you No, but it is that special. It does. It has had that type of effect on me and, and I love how, like a book like this and you prompting me to to do some further study and inquiry. Just really, it just keeps getting better. And I just feel so thankful for all this. So well, I just had to say the turn inward. And she pointed out in the book. I mean, I feel it's critical. You know, because I'm a meditation teacher, at the turn inward, she points out is not an easy path for some people with their history of trauma. So this is why her exercises and the pieces that she takes the reader through if you're a yoga teacher or a yoga practitioner, can be very helpful to navigate the rough spots in the turn inward. Where the vagus nerve is giving you information that you need to handle in your life. Yeah, so to speak. Well said. All right. Adios. Thank you, Todd. Thank you, Michael. Native yoga podcast is produced by myself. The theme music is dreamed up by Bryce Allen. 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